Ingemar Johansen vs Cleveland Williams

Is this after taxes?

The reason there was only one championship fight per year in those days was the very high tax rates. Johansson had already fought for the title and so had gotten a big payday. A Liston fight probably at the earliest would have come off in 1962, but Liston by that time was undoubtedly more interested in fighting Patterson for the title. A Johansson fight would only have been in the works if Liston had been unable to secure a Patterson fight because of his underworld ties.

As it is, I think all this, to the extent there was any talk of such a fight, was mainly for the newspapers and publicity.

A fight which might have come off if Johansson didn't retire was with Ali in 1963.

*The tax rates in the US went down beginning in the mid-sixties with the Kennedy tax cuts.

 

You are correct about the tax factor. I was reading an interview recently where Floyd was going through a list of prospective opponents in 1961 and he said he would be fighting literally for nothing.
As an aside Patterson gets a slightly bad press on the avoidance issue. He beat the number one guy Moore to win the crown, beat the stand out contender Jackson who had troubled him in an eliminater before the Moore fight, 1958 he did dodge the better fellows but in 1959 he fought the clear number one.
He was then caught up in the rematch-clause fights with Ingo and fought the clear top contender Liston in 1962. So in 56 57 59 60 61 62 he fought the best available fighter?

 

Johansson and Williams are not on the same level. Pretty sure the people arguing for williams are patriotic americans... one was a heavyweight champion who beat every opponent he ever faced as a pro. Knocked out the other two highest boxers at the time (machen and patterson) in spectacular fashion.

who was williams best win? who did he lose against? he never beat anyone at the level of johanssons best wins. he lost numerous times against fighters like sylvester jones and satterfield. johansson would never lose against this kind of opposition. not even early in his career and he stepped in opposition very quickly.

if you can't separate world class fighters from boxers like williams, you don't really don't know that much about boxing.

 

I'm English and not particularly patriotic,you assume too much.

 

makes it even harder to understand the reasons for favouring williams in this match up.

 

Nonsense. As senor pepe pointed out, Johansson had agreed to fight Liston in 1961. :rofl

you simply assume too much

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=389640&page=2

 

The problem is he managed to squeeze in 3 title defenses from 57-59 with none of them being clear cut top contenders zora folley or Eddie machen. He never took on any big punchers like niño valdes either who flew to a number 2 ranking in 1958

 

Anyone who thinks Williams is an easy fight for Johannson is not thinking rationally

 

Oh I get it I'm just saying it wasn't THAT bad. I think he was been judged on the standard of Louis, Charles and Marciano-guys like Willard, Johnson, Dempsey, Carnera,Tunney, Corbett, Sullivan, all had cases to answer.

 

It's a fact that Johannson turned down a $1000,000 offer to fight Liston.Why is it a stretch to favour Williams over Ingo? Patterson twice knocked Ingo spark out and he could not hit anywhere near as hard as Williams.
Brian London dropped him but ran out of time to finish the job.

 

You know Williams was a 20year old last minute sub in the Satterfield fight?
You know 20 years old Williams stopped Jones less than a year later?

Williams, as he went into the 1960's had lost just 3 fights he was 43 -2-0 one loss was to Satterfield one to Jones later avenged and one to Liston.

Where do you get lost numerous times from?

Satterfield would have a very good chance of koing a 20 years old Ingo especially if he was a late substitute.

When he was 20 Ingo fought 3-3-0 Robert Masson.He ended up won 4 ,lost 14 a real test.

If you don't know this then you know Jack ****.

 

by that age johansson had already been in an olympic final...

it's funny that you point out one opponent with a bad record. as a matter of fact johansson never fought one opponent with a losing record. as for williams and his 43-2 record... well you can count the number of opponents with a losing record for yourself.. ihere is the link http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9382&cat=boxer . its probably about 15 to 20. it just shows that his record was padded if nothing else. you have to take that into account. johansson fought for the euro title in his 15th pro bout.

by williams 15th bout he fought baby booze. a debutant who finished 0-1.

by bouts 21 and 22 johansson fought machen and patterson.

in williams 21st and 22nd bout williams fought Graveyard Walters 1-0 and Abie Gibson 0-2.

Comparing them the way you do does not give a good picture of their careers.

i'm sure you get my point.

 

Do you want to talk about that final ? Being thrown out against Ed Sanders for lack of effort?

Johannson fought Patterson and Machen those are his significant wins Williams fought Terrell ,Liston ,Ali and Machen. Ali made Ingo look **** in sparring without throwing punches, Ingo couldnt land a jab on him in the 1st rd and resorted to trying to bomb him out with his bingo in the 2nd then he walked out of the ring. I think Ingo loses to those named that Williams lost to .I don't mind you being sarcastic or at least I wouldnt if you knew your subject and addressed my points.

 

it shouldn't be hard to understand who was the more accomplished fighter and it's not even a contest in this case. a sparring is a sparring session. johansson was never known for his sparring sessions and for example before his first fight against patterson he didn't look impressive. hardly threw his right hand. many fighters look bad in sparring but anyway.. losing in sparring against the greatest heavyweight ever is no shame and ali would have whupped anyone in sparring.

i wouldn't call terrell a great champion and johansson would most likely blast him out too.

machen a common opponent, ingo KO 1. williams - machen a draw.

it's just to hard to make a case for williams..

 

I don't think ingo necessarily loses to Terrell. Ingo knocked machen out as emphatically as it is possible to knock a man out and Terrell drew with machen years later. Ingo also knocked out Patterson. Williams can hit but who says he can hit Patterson? Williams could not knock out machen could he?

Ingo loses to Ali and perhaps Liston for sure. No shame in that.

The ingo Ali sparring session proved nothing much. It proved Ali was a talent but it was just sparring. I dont see what that brings to the debate to discover what was actually Williams signature win?

Williams needs a signature win. Cleveland Williams must go down as the only knockout artist with no signature wins.