Ingemar Johansson, 1958 vs Frank Bruno, 1986, who wins and why?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Richard M Murrieta, Apr 30, 2021.

  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You're obsessed with which round they were KO'd in.
    The fact of the matter is that Machen was KO'd by Johansson.
    He doesn't get a "fluke pass" because it's Johansson most impressive and/or quickest KO.
    The result is the result.

    winning results against nobodies are irrelevant. No one cares about Bruno's 1st round KO of John Emmen or Chuck Gardner, and a bunch of other bums I can't remember.
    That's not how we measure a fighter's caliber.

    The fact is Johansson KO'd the #1 contender and the world champion (neither had been KO'd before) in back-to-back fights at his peak.
    The only logical conclusion to draw is that Johansson in 1958-'59 was a world class operator and a big puncher.
    It's absurd that you engage in weird mental gymnastics to try to disprove that obvious point.

    I have no idea what "white hope as power puncher" means.



    His knockouts of Machen and Patterson are his best.
    He also KO'd the best fighters in Europe.
    He was known for his right hand punch.
     
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  2. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    For your mental gymnastics: Johansson didn´t quickly deal with bums and set-ups. Its on numerous of data in his resume. Bruno koed them. Did you get that?


    Because of two cases (n = 2) with Floyd Flatterchin and Machen, who never looked that way again: Do seriously think he was in the power league of a 230lb 40 - 5 (38 KOs) Frank Bruno?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 2:56 AM
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He was in Bruno's "power league" (whatever that is), yes, because, frankly, that's not much of a league is it ?
    What the **** did Bruno do to qualify for that league ?
    By KOing bums and a couple of decent fighters ? Or by having big muscles ?
    Obviously Bruno hit hard but most his KOs were bums and set ups, so forget the stats.
    You list ten names, and it's a joke, to be honest. When you have to make a case for guys like LeDoux, Tillis, a fat Ferguson ..... not good.

    I'm not saying "two cases" puts Johansson in any "power league". I'm saying those two results show what he could do against top quality fighters.

    Both of them hit hard.
    Johansson has the better KOs.
    If you want to make up a league that favours Bruno, that's up to you. But you're struggling to make a case really.
     
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  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Bruno knocked out ONE genuine top ten ranked fighter in his entire career.
    Coetzee, who was on the decline, probably in the lower half of any reasonable top ten.

    After that, there might be a couple of "top 20" of "fringe" types, like Pierre Coetzer, or old Bugner.

    That's it.

    He never KO'd a champion or a top or prime contender.
    He never even knocked one down.
     
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  5. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's irrelevant.
    No one cares.
    We don't rank fighters' on what they did against bums. Those wins are mostly meaningless, whether they were 10 round decision or 1st round KO.
    When they start to step up, that's when we assess their worth.
     
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  6. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    I don´t care rating or single events, I care about data. The more, the better. Bruno koed as many man as Ingo ever fought. His names are

    LeDoux
    Eklund
    Coetzee
    Tillis
    Bugner
    Ribalta
    Coetzer
    Williams
    Ferguson
    McCall

    Some of these guys would eat the 190-punders of the 50s for breakfast. To believe, a fellow who is 2-2 with Patterson and Machen and zero resume to back up anything else as a puncher, is above a fighter who stopped many 220-pounders in 40 wins and 38 KOs, is beyond any logic or whatsover.
    But sure. Lets go for another rumble of n = 1 with Primo Carnera and Jack Sharkey and tell me about his ranking and his reputation at the time :lol:
    Of course until the mood of the crowd changes by watching fights, part of the "Equalists" change direction and start to go with the current of common sense, like:
    This content is protected
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 3:37 AM
  7. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Johansson knocked out ALL the best European heavyweights, before KOing the #1 world contender, and the world champion.
    Yes, you've made it clear that this means nothing to you. :lol:


    Sharkey and Carnera are irrelevant to this thread.
    You keep mentioning irrelevant fighters because you have no argument whatsoever.
    okay, here's one for you, Mr.Data ...... Brian Nielsen has more KOs than Frank Bruno .... and your favourite, Primo Carnera has 71 KOs .... to me, those stats are virtually meaningless, but for you I don't know .....
     
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  8. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    European fighters of the 50s, alright !
    I already gave you mass and names (including a Swede lol). You gave me 2-2 going 1-2 with one of them. We´re not going any further on this I guess.

    But seriously, if 191-202 Johansson was in the boots of Frank Bruno starting in 1982, what do you think how´d this go?
     
  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Bruno hardly stopped anyone worth talking about.
    Who gives a **** how many 220 pound bums he stopped ?
     
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  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I didn't think it was worth pulling a load of bums off of Johansson's record, as you did with Bruno's !
    I was trying to explain to you how stupid it all is. :lol:

    But there are guys on Johansson's record who were over 200 pounds and RANKED AT SOME TIME, such as Heinz Neuhaus or Hein Ten Hoff.
    I don't rate them much, but if you're the kind of person who rates LeDoux and Eklund, it's telling that you wouldn't list them.

    Franco Cavvichi.
    Even Archie MCBride is arguably the Tillis-level gatekeeper type of the day.
    Erskine probably.

    To me though, it's not relevant.

    He'd definitely lose to Mike Tyson.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 4:05 AM
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  11. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    I disagree, his right hand never looked the same after the Dokes fight. It was very ineffective against Page. He actually re-broke his hand while training for Holmes and had a second surgery before Page. Coetzee was known for his bionic hand but at some point all the breaks caught up to him, and his conditioning of course was suffering from all the time off in this period, hence the weight gain.

    For the record, Page fought a brilliant fight, I'm not trying to crap on him. Coetzee even without a full power right hand and questionable conditioning was a tough customer with an excellent jab. He was however clearly on the decline, too many consecutive surgeries, too many long lay offs. I feel this fight was his last stand.

    Tillis was a trial horse used to give guys rounds without being a threat, lots of fighters beat him easier than Tyson, doesn't really mean anything. The win got Coetzee a last pay day against Bruno. That's about it.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 4:13 AM
  12. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    I mean, I admitted that I tried to go chok-mode to some amount, but are you serious here? One of the german fellows and the Italian you brought up prob. never put a step onto US-ground in their life :lol:
    LeDoux , Tillis, Coetzee, Williams, McCall, Coetzer mixed it up with the best of HW division at certain times. Do you see anyone knowing Franco Cavvichi, Heinz Neuhaus or Hein Ten Hoff in the 80s, boxing journalists in the US writing about them, HBO showing them?
    Do you think they´d fight Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield or Lennox Lewis in the 80/90s too?

    Good lord.....
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 4:15 AM
  13. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    Unforgiven has the patience of a saint to deal with this non-sense.
     
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  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Ingo is difficult to assess. I think he was a genuine danger to anyone when he peaked 58-59, but at world level, like Patterson, after this title fights he became more ordinary and far less of a threat to champion calibre opponents like Liston.

    As for Sonny being able to take the bingo?

    It was a lot harder than the phantom punch that felled Sonny that’s for sure.
     
  15. Bah Lance

    Bah Lance Active Member Full Member

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    Pretty disgusting comment, to call Ingo a ***** for not accepting a fight after he retired for health concerns when he was badly hurt against London. Given Ingo's early on set Alzheimer's....just wow. I'm glad I put this guy on ignore.

    Ingo and Liston actually became good friends in the mid 60s from my understanding. I'm curious what Liston would think about someone calling his friend a *****.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021 at 4:27 AM
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