Ingemar Johansson, 1958 vs Frank Bruno, 1986, who wins and why?

Saw that https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...-s-chin-with-alis.667025/page-2#post-21035343 ? What about you giving us some great insight on Rocco again?

 

I have no interest in yet another circular Marciano argument. Geez.....

 

Ok give me a break.
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Because of what happened in Lewiston, you´re making a case for Ingos Bingo on the chin of 59-62 Liston? @swagdelfadeel

 

His right hand was fine against Page I've seen the fight about 25 times. He landed some crushing right hands but the problem was Page at that time had a great chin and Gerrie could not get him out of there. He soaked up some right hands that had ended the night for other guys. It's all there on film.

There was an enormous amount of feeling in that fight and Gerrie was trying to knock his head clean off his shoulders which again, can easily be seen on the film.

Coetzee's best ever win was over Dokes.

 

Agreed. Liston hit much harder than both Walcott and Moore who both felled Marciano, that's for sure.

 

you are forgetting the same man who knocked out Patterson before Sonny did. Machen and Patterson were the best two guys Liston ever beat too.

Machen was a higher level contender than Bruno. I think this is historically factual. He beat live contenders and Bruno did not.

where is the evidence for this? Can’t you make a case for Bruno without getting personal?

you wish the Machen win was a fluke!. Was the Liston wins over Patterson flukes as well? How about Louis v Schmeling or weaver over Dokes?

 

I lost the patience months ago, it is pointless. I'm glad that Unforgiven still does his job.

 

I second that. These upstarts just don’t back up their claims

 

Well, I haven't watched the fight that many times. I recall Coetzee loading up on his left hook more than usual and the right hands that connected not looking like his usual bombs. Page had a sturdy chin but I couldn't see him shaking off the rights that finished Dokes.

I just can't see a fighter being fine after a failed training camp and multiple surgeries that put him out of action for the longest lay off his career. Even if your memory is better than mine here, there's cause to consider the injuries at the end of his career were effecting his performance even if it escaped the naked eye. All those surgeries throughout his career, he never missed time like this. Fighters have adapted to chronic hand surgery but never been unaffected by them.

I agree on the Dokes win being his finest. I respect your opinion overall on this and will gladly withdrawal my claim, I will have to rewatch the Page fight again one of these days. Perhaps a memory bias on my part.

 

So what ?
I'm not building them up as something they are not. To me they're virtually nobodies. But you listed a load of nobodies on Bruno's record too.

LeDoux and Tillis were journeyman types.
Williams was beaten by 8-4 Jerry Jones a year before Bruno faced him, and well on his way to be a trial horse too.

Well, Larry Holmes fought Zanon, Frank, Evangelista, Rodriguez, Ocasio, M.Frazier .....
Tyson fought M.Frazier, Alfonzo Ratliff, Peter McNeeley, Henry Tillman, .... all on HBO or Showtime ...
etc.
etc.

 

There is no such thing as overweight and in optimum condition.

 

I agree that Gerrie Coetzee's best win was against Dokes in 1983, but he lost to Greg Page the following year, about 14 months later.
The Bruno fight was actually 2 1/2 years after his win against Dokes, and losing to Page was nothing to boast about at the time, was it ?

Page's record around that time :

L12 Witherspoon
L12 Bey
WKO8 Coetzee
L15 Tubbs
L10 Douglas

.... then after winning by DQ against Funso Banjo in England, Page reached journeyman level when he was beaten up bad and KO'd by Mark Wills, a 5-5-1 fighter, a mere 18 months after the Coetzee fight actually.

Yeah, Coetzee managed a points win over Tillis between the loss to Page and the Bruno fight ..... but Tillis was a journeyman losing to any type of fringe contender and prospect by then, and only beating clubfighters and obscure opponents with obscure losing record.
Okay, fair enough, Coetzee DID manage a win there, but it's hardly anything to shout about either.

I'd say both Coetzee and Page were done by 1985.

 

It's probably true that Coetzee was looking at retirement after the Tillis win and was tempted out by an offer for the "WBA eliminator" with Bruno.
It's nicer to retire on a win, but the money was good.
Anyway, Coetzee returned to the ring in the 1990s anyway, so that's that.

 

100℅. Coetzee needed a comeback type fight over a name opponent to get back into the swing of things and remain relevant.
Tillis was ideal because he still had a name but was relatively low risk. His best days were behind him and he wasn't a puncher, nor generally the type of guy likely to upset the applecart.
A decent win, but as you say, an expected win. It was mildly disappointing that Gerrie couldn't get a stoppage.

 

Many thanks Richard M.