Ingemar Johansson vs. Francois Botha

I don't think Ingo beats Moorer.

 

I disagree Machen fought a defensive fight and did not engage.Liston found few opportunities to land solidly on him.
Ingo was a dangerous puncher but he needed a ton of shots to stop Patterson and Machen,that was kitchen sink stuff.

 

This just isn't true. Liston put the heavy artillery away for the most part.

 

Machen definitely could be careless- And I think that Ingo fight itself is the only evidence we need. Johansson had troubles hitting Patterson in certain times during their trilogy, when Floyd himself was not exactly the most defensively sound fighter- And yet, I should believe that Machen was prepared for what Ingo had in store and he just, wasn't good enough to evade? It was the first round and Machen likely knew next to nothing about his opponent, sees some clumsy looking Swede enter the ring, and take him as seriously as he did Liston, Williams, or Folley? It is clear that Machen was caught off guard and iced because of it, and not that Johansson had better punch placement than Sonny Liston.

I only mentioned the chin factor because you did.
Botha also does have a high enough level to his game to be able to beat Ingo, and he's certainly fought competitive fights with much better men than either of them, and has come close to winning, or was robbed. He arguably beat Shannon Briggs who could've had just as if not more power than Ingo, not to mention him being much faster, and much more relentless than Johannson.

 

Everything that Liston threw was heavy artillery.

 

The fact remains that nobody else was able to blitz Machen like that, and a lot of heavy punchers tried.

 

If an ancient Foreman could put him away like that, I hate to think what Ingo would have done to him.

 

Liston didn't try to KO Machen because Machen's running made it difficult so Liston put the heavy artillery away, paced himself, and looked to just touch Machen and outbox him.

 

That is a disengenous remark which would seem to be made to cover your earlier incautious one.
Liston was very capable of patient,measured boxing, and never disdained retreating momentarily,
I think you over reached yourself with the kitchen sink quote,it would be nice if you could admit to it and qualify it accordingly.

 

I think Ingo is been underrated here. He was clever and set traps. He beat more than Patterson and Machen, Neuhaus, Cooper and a few more were good fighters. After winning the title he chose the fine life bur remember he never fought a fighter with a losing record and beat every man he faced. Botha would be a challenge for sure but I suspect he was made for Ingo.

 

Foreman may have been a lot slower in middle age but he had lost none of his power and could be remarkably accurate when the situation called for it. Watch his punches against Cooney.
Ingo caught Machen cold and ducked the return which Eddie badly wanted he stopped Patterson once in three tries and he had to hit him with a fusillade of punches to do so.He stopped Henry Cooper who, like Floyd did not have a great chin,thats it.Ingo did not have a great chin either as London proved.
He could win this match ,but its far from certain he would.

 

OK I will withdraw the phrase if you don't like it.

I think you see my wider point.

 

It is always far from certain, but surely to God Ingo should be the favorite here?

 

The fact remains Machen fought a defensive fight against Liston who is the only other we are concerned with here.

 

You're a good poster,it isnt whether I like a phrase or not but whether that phrase is accurate,and imo, in this case it was not.You being prepared to withdraw it implicitly confirms that you know it was not.