Atlas and it wasn't Botha fight, it was Bean fight which was far closer and harder for Moorer This content is protected
Johansson's icing of an unfocused and unprepared Machen, as well as wins over Cooper and London are not as proving of fights as you think. I've already went over the Machen account either on this thread or a differently related one, but he took 5 to stop Cooper when Folley later only took 2, and couldn't even drop London in 12! Hen Toff's loss would be impressive if he also wasn't stopped in 1 by Heinz Neuhaus who ended up with a KO rate of 15/42. And Eskrine? Don't get me started on Eskrine... Ingo took 13 rounds to stop a man who lost 75% of the time by stoppage, but he ended up being the man who took the longest to do it. Valdes in 1, London in 8, and Cooper in 12 and 5 (Cut stoppage in 9 isn't relevant). And it's extremely funny that the two fighters you reference are men who Botha fought while past his best, but let's go there anyway. Botha is obviously not known for his power, whereas Witherspoon is- Even if ancient, it's understandable that Terrible Tim was able to put a man away in one whereas Botha took 12 to win a decision. Botha wasn't even able to floor Moorer, so I don't see relevance here. And you're having a laugh with mentioning Hoffman, the fight came in 2009, multiple years after Frans' 5 year absence from the sport, and ten years since he got last his last quality win against Briggs (He won that fight, go back and watch it if you really need to). Johansson had power, but he found it extremely hard to land with- "Good fighter, world champion" means nothing when his best wins come against unsuspecting victims or glass chins. He won undisputed in a way that could only be done against that Patterson, and that night's Patterson alone- He became much better past then. Botha may have only been a fringe contender- But he fought much more capable men while at a lower level than Johansson historically, and performed better in his losses than Ingo did in his wins. When the only true world class wins you have come with a disclaimers, you can't hold them too high in retrospect.
I wasn't referencing the same corner talk that Saintpat was- Even if he got my mistake by calling Atlas, Rooney. I'm honestly embarrassed that I made that mistake, lol. I think I talk too much boxing for my own good. I was talking about this instance. This content is protected
I consider them better than Ted Lowry, Roland LaStarza or Don Mogard. I simply ask you to examine the hams on Botha which represent the finest Boer breeding stock available.
Teddy gets a lot of stick for his theatrics, but I have to plead guilty to an over-the-top motivational tactic myself in my early days as a manager/trainer … We had a guy show up at our gym and after some investigation (he gave us a false name, basically, then kind of told us the truth and I called his original trainer to get more info) found out he was like 1-6-1. But it didn’t match up because he had speed and decent power and really good skills in sparring. The former trainer told me, ‘You’ll see.’ Well, I did. In our first club show that my brother promoted, we put him in with a veteran ‘opponent’ type who had an iron jaw and a bit of ability when motivated (usually his thing was go the distance with someone, pick up a check and then do it again as quickly as possible after). And my guy with all the ability was barely throwing any punches — he had a kind of stage fright and just wasn’t the same guy in the ring as he was in the gym. But the veteran opponent type wasn’t doing a whole lot either. By my reckoning, after three rounds in this four-rounder they were all even … hardly any punches thrown in the first and one round apiece. Well, my guy’s wife had recently had a baby and she was sitting near our corner at ringside. I leaned over and told her late in the third round ‘when I point at you between rounds, I want you to hold up that baby so he can see it.’ She nodded. So I lit into him in the corner. And I pointed at her, she held the baby up and I said, ‘THAT is what you’re fighting for. Are you going to let that baby down?’ He went out and unlearned I’d guess a 20- or 30-punch barrage and the opponent stumbled backwards into the ropes, nearly went down but grabbed the ropes with both hands to stay up. The ref, rightly, called it a knockdown (no ropes and he definitely goes down) and we got a 10-8 round on all cards and my guy won a narrow decision. After that 1-6-1 start, my guy went 17-5-1 with us. He fought a few big names and in all but two of those instances gave them good rounds (alas, he also had a suspect chin and got cracked early a couple times). Fought internationally, made some money and was a good attraction on our cards who had a lot of local fans. Even won a regional belt. He had a few instances of that ‘stage fright’ where he’d freeze up and we worked like hell to help him overcome it, which he mostly did.
Certain fighters need certain things, and sometimes you have to be a little rough with who you're training. I do think that Atlas' method only got Moorer to work good so far, though. He told Michael what was going to happen in the Foreman fight, but didn't listen because he was conditioned to not care for orders.
That version of Briggs lost against Sedrick Fields just a few months later. Not such a dangerous fighter at that time.
No, he got a ton of shots because the referee didn't stop Machen in the corner when only the ring held him up. He was already out of it. It is like saying that Griffith needed all those shots to stop Parrett. He was already out and only the ropes/corner held them up.
Definitely more dangerous than Johansson, still. I'd credit Ingo more if he fought meaningful fights after the Patterson trilogy, but based off of what we saw, I can't even credit him over guys who lost to worse fighters than he did- He just didn't do enough.
The sort of conjecture I seem to share with the best trainers in the world over the past few decades. But never mind them. What would they know?