Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Mar 30, 2018.
who wins? And how?
Liston stops Ingo in about 4-5.
Liston. Johannson had a good right hand though and could rock Liston with it if he isn't careful. But I see Liston eventually plowing his way through Johannson very convincingly.
Ingo gets the glare from Liston and b lines it to the nearest exit
Sonny woulda killed him, ingo had good power but he rellied soley on being the harder hitter, liston not only had more power but a better chin, longer reach, a jab that could knock him out, and much better skill/ ring generalship.
I have Liston here by KO, but I think a more interesting question would be who the best/most modern fighter Johansson would be favored over would be.
Liston and early!
Absolutely. Ed Sanders scared the life out of Ingo at the 1952 Olympics to the point where Ingo was DQed for not trying.
Obviously the Ingo of 1959 was a different man to what he was in 1952. But Ed Sanders was no Sonny Liston when it came to intimidation.
The end of 1959 Ring Mag Ratings had:
1. Zora Folley
2. Floyd Patterson
3. Sonny Liston
4. Henry Cooper
5. Eddie Machen
Liston took care of both Folley & Machen in 1960, while Cooper stayed in the closet.
Patterson rematched, & rematched, Ingo in 1960 & 1961 in competitive fights
between the two guys.
Milwaukee Sentinel, August 6, 1959:
Sonny Liston, his right eye clamped tight after the first round, exploded with a furious punching onslaught to flatten the veteran Cuban Nino Valdes in 47 seconds of the third round of their scheduled 10-rounder here Wednesday night. A tremendous left hook, followed by a whistling right, dumped the trial horse against the ropes shortly after the third opened. Valdes sat there, one arm draped over the ropes until seven, then rolled to his knees where he took the full ten count. He finally staggered to his feet at 12—too late, of course. It was the third ranking heavyweight's 18th straight victory—he's lost only one in 26—and further embellished his already bright reputation among the big guys. Liston, who claimed Valdes had thumbed him in the late moments of the opening round, was still a tamed tiger in the second round, although he was getting to Valdes with his jarring left jab. But it was a different tale once the third got under way. The 25-year-old Philadelphian marched right out and started banging away. He did get hit with a stunning left hook but bounced right back with a two-fisted attack that backed his huge opponent into the ropes. Then came his dynamiting left-right combination that brought Sonny Boy his knockout. It was an impressive finish by an impressive heavyweight. The usual cry from the winner's camp was heard—a challenge to Ingemar Johansson—but he can forget about it for the time being, although other so-called challengers like Eddie Machen and Zora Folley better beware of this latest threat on the heavyweight horizon.
Ingo was quite full of himself. He would not have been intimidated I don’t think. Why should he have been? Machen lasted 11 more rounds with Liston than he did with Ingo.
There is a famous sports illustrated article where Ingo studies film of Sonny and remarks upon how he would fight Liston, this was 1962 I don’t think Ingo could beat Sonny by then but Ingo certainly believed he could. That sort of confidence can go a very long way if a fighter is in his physical prime. And Ingo was finished after the Patterson series.
However, 1959 Ingo was red hot. Sonny had not quite peaked in 1959. I’m not as impressed by Sonny in 59’ I think Liston was a lot better in 1960. but I am impressed with Ingo in 58’59’.
In short I favour Liston to win against Ingo after 1960. But I actually slightly favour Ingo over Liston in 1958-59.
Ingo's statement on 2/21/ 1958, after winning the EBU title, but before the Sept 1958 Machen fight:
"I'm going to the United States in the spring (1958), but I'm not going to fight - only to study boxing in American rings. I hope to fight a top-ranking American like Willie Pastrano in Stockholm next July. The outcome of that match would decide whether I'd challenge Patterson or not." -Ingemar Johansson
Ingo vs Joe Erskine (2/21/1958) for EBU Title
Erskine's seconds tossed in the towel at the end of the 13th round of the scheduled 15 round title contest after the Swede had piled up a huge lead. Johansson had Erskine in dire straits in the 11th, 12th and 13th rounds. He relentlessly pressed his shorter rival to the ropes and pounded him with both hands." -Associated Press
Erskine, the British Empire champion from Cardiff, Wales had been promised a shot at Floyd Patterson's world crown in London in June of '58 if he could upset the favored Johansson.
Post fight comment
"I'm going to the United States in the spring, but I'm not going to fight - only to study boxing in American rings. I hope to fight a top-ranking American like Willie Pastrano in Stockholm next July. The outcome of that match would decide whether I'd challenge Patterson or not." -Ingemar Johansson
I pick Liston because he was a better fighter.
However, people seem to just dismiss Ingo out of hand like no chance.
Anyone who does what he did to machen and Patterson has at least a punchers chance.
He clearly enjoyed the good life on winning the title and it’s a shame he doesn’t have a longer body of work to truly judge his abilities (I think on film they look below average besides the elite right hand)
Liston By tko by round 9
To me, this is an outrageous opinion. I think Ingo's chances are at best a miracle or Hail Mary. Even if he lands the right hand, he's gonna need quite a few more of them to put away a big strong durable guy like a prime Sonny. No matter how you slice it, Liston is the huge favorite.
Your claim of Liston suddenly got so much better from 1959 to 1960 has no merit.
Watch the film it shows Liston of 58-60 to be in his physical prime, his best conditioned, and sharpest mentally.
This is in 58 against bethea. Bethea had maybe the best chin in the heavyweight division at the time. Liston utterly destroys him
Johansson is a one trick pony. Liston is a complete fighter and all around has an advantage over ingo in every category. Ingo does not have the physical tools, athleticism, chin, or strength to survive a Liston onslaught...and he doesn't have the defense to avoid listons jab. When Liston connects and he will, Johansson will go to sleep
The way to beat Liston was with movement and a good right hand. At his best, albeit a very short window, Ingo had great movement and probably had the best right hand in the divisions history.
Liston was a wrecking machine for sure. But he was not hard to hit and the movement of Whithurst and Machen totally frustrated him.
Whitehurst wobbled Sonny. If Whitehurst can, why write off Ingo?
Sometimes you just get a bogey man who is not necessarily as great who just happens to be the antidote to beat the great fighter. There is evidence Ingo could be Sonnys worst nightmare. That’s all I am saying.
You make a sound argument for Ingo’s chances- movement and a big right hand- I don’t write him off for that reason although I make him a clear underdog. However “the best right hand in the division’s history”
Better than Wlad? Lewis? LOUIS?
I can’t go that far. Defeating machen and 190lb Floyd isn’t enough for that hyperbole imo