Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Shows that the gap in their resumes is perhaps not as wide as you're claiming. If you think making that kind of list is a good way to determine the outcome between two fighters, go for it. Following boxing I've noticed that such methods are generally not that accurate.

 

I disagree a hypothetical Ingo win closes the gap behind Sonny, but it's a moot point. Ingo didn't and almost certainly wouldn't have beaten a prime Liston.

Ranking top 10 wins is a perfectly reasonable barometer for assessing their relative ranking. You can submit your own list, but dismissing it as a relevant criteria suggests an agenda other than reaching a reasonable, objective and unbiased conclusion as to their relative standings.

 

I have always maintained that Ali's punching power is underrated,but come on, there's little doubt that for raw punching power Cleveland Williams was vastly superior to Ali.
Hmmm.....so you want to draw Eddie Machen into the equation by comparing his performances against
Liston and Johansson ? Well,I've got one.How about comparing Floyd Patterson's performances against
Liston and Johansson ?

 

And Johansson KO'd Machen in one round while Machen beat Valdes twice.

 

Exactly. These comparisons mean nothing when you only use them to suit your narrative and conveniently ignore similar comparisons that don’t. That was precisely my point.

Here’s another one, Brian London was nothing more than a punching bag for Machen, yet brutally floored Ingo, and would’ve been stopped had the bell not rung according to the referee himself.

See what I mean? They’re completely meaningless when you only use the ones to suit your agenda, and ignore the other ones that don’t, like Chok and Lance do.

 

Yes, it was a very close fight Swag.

Many felt Cleve deserved the nod.

I agree, that was a KD in round 3 and certainly Terrell hung on for dear life after he arose.

Terrell’s negative illegal tactics were awful - under a mod point system and a good ref, points would’ve/should’ve been deducted.

I didn’t know about Cleve’s hands - any specific cause or did he simply have chronic issues?

As they compared in the ring, that fight more than any other makes me question Terrell’s listed height of 6’6”.

In fact, I recently read a contemporary article which had Terrell at 6’4” - though I do think he was clearly taller than that.

 

Liston absolutely batters him

 

No chronic issues, that I'm aware of. He injured it against Jack Johnson just 11 days earlier. I'm gonna have to find you a source (so I'm not accused of making excuses) and get back to you on that.

 

You’ve made some good points - there are no hard and fast rules for interpreting the numbers. Deeper analysis per case is always necessary.

Conversely, overweighting Ingo’s fine wins over Machen and Patterson can also be misleading.

Better coverage of the Top 10 in terms of wins could be upheld to indicate greater versatility and more broad domination.

Patterson himself is a special case in point - a protected Champ under the management of D’Amato.

The likes of Machen/Folley were made to jump through ridiculous hoops and prevented from getting a shot - and Liston, as concrete a #1 as you could hope for, was well delayed until it became impossible to deny him further.

But D’Amato let Ingo through - so perhaps that can be taken as an indication of what Cus thought of Johannson - or didn’t think of him.

As to manner of victories - sure, that can possibly count but some fighters are dedicated KO artists in victory - when they do win.

At least until he defeated Foreman himself, Ali paled next to Foreman in terms of common opponents and nature of victory.

That didn’t speak for Ali’s broader beating of ranked fighter otherwise or Ali’s own H2H superiority over Foreman.

Ingo simply hit it at just the right time, all credit for that - but they were upset KO victories over a complacent Machen and precariously balanced Champ in Patterson - induced by his single money punch, the right hand - not much else.

Fine victories but they were what they were and not necessarily extrapolated into broader superiority over a greater number of ranked fighters - if Ingo had actually engaged those fighters.

And those hypothetical victories would’ve actually made his resume look a lot better.

 

"I hurt my hands on Billy Daniels on March 9. A couple of weeks later I banged them up on Young Jack Johnson. I couldn't throw a punch without a stabbing pain going through my arm. But the promoter had set up this return match. We didn't want to let him down. It was a mistake. Even so, I thought I licked him, but it was in Philadelphia, his home town and he got a hometown decision."

Source:: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99985978/the-los-angeles-times/

• Williams scheduled bout on April 13th with Ernie Terrell was placed in jeopardy due to Williams' injuring both hands during the bout. But the Terrell-Williams bout took place as planned. Source: https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Cleveland_Williams_vs._Young_Jack_Johnson

Their was also talk about this immediately after the Johnson bout before he faced Terrell so it can't be dismissed as a post-loss excuse.

"Heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams scored a costly TKO over Young Jack Johnson Tuesday night in the final round of a scheduled 10-rounder. Williams signed for a television bout against Ernie Terrell April 13, injured both hands in the wild brawl with Johnson. https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99984956/des-moines-tribune/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99984956/des-moines-tribune/

Had to bring my sources so I wasn't accused of making excuses by the likes of Chok, and his fellow idiot bah Lance (who's to much of a coward to actually quote me directly to do so).

 

Thanks Swag, of course, as you would know, I take you for your word anyway. A fight, 11 days prior - different times back then, which people don’t often account for. Could you imagine PBF fighting under that schedule and impairment? No way. Lol.

 

Do we need any more proof pre-gunshot Cleveland Williams is the GOAT?

 

Just read this now. Much appreciated. Dude, you’re the source King - you clearly don’t pull info out of your a** - and you’ve earned the rock solid rep not to have supply sources at every turn - sources that I doubt are afforded to you as often, in kind.

 

We can barter.

You can have Big Cat as the GOAT if I can have Ingo as The Thinking Man’s GOAT - and, when you think about it (hard), Ingo really does deserve that title.

And Ingo shagged some top tier actresses also - and those ladies def. resided in everyone’s top 10 as and at the time Ingo brought The Hammer down upon them - including Liz “Cleopatra” Taylor.

Sweden forever…….

 

**** it I'll allow it.

Ingo was a ladies man for sure. From what I hear, he put a lot of Ingo in a lot of Bingos.