Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Thanks but while I guess I'm pretty good. Their are a fair amount of posters far better me in this respect including solomondeedes.

 

Well, you both “show the money” 1) of your own volition and, 2) as and when someone asks for same - above and beyond the call, imo….but very much appreciated all the same.

But that’s enough now. I don’t want you getting a swelled head. Stay hungry, maintain your edge.

PS - Having seen so many boxing snaps, it’s not often you see a “new” one - at least this pic of The Cleaver is “new” to me, maybe not you: -

https://www.topfoto.co.uk/asset/3119308/

 

Excellent find. Never saw it before. I do have one of Williams on his birthday if you'd like to see.

 

Best or near best boxer/puncher brawl ever.

For years I’d only seen the rematch - and in that fight, among other shots, Williams hit Liston with such force with one punch (a right hand), it drove Liston’s head between the rope strands.

The vision of the first fight is better - not least for the audio - and that left you referenced sounded like someone hitting a heavy bag with a baseball bat.

Sonny was hurt, gave some ground but it wasn’t screamingly obvious due to his great chin - I think it was fight 1 that Liston said he didn’t know if he was going to make it through.

It’s strange to cite a possible stylistic advantage for a fighter who actually lost - and x 2 times at that.

But at least for the 1st round or so, Big Cat was able to hit Liston with what looked to be among his very best punches - they were HUGE.

If Liston’s chin was any less than what it was - it might just as easily have resulted in early round KO wins for Williams.

But it wasn’t just Liston’s god given chin - it was his mental cool under fire - sticking to his game and utilising his excellent boxing skills and power of punch to fight through the storm and flip the fight(s) over in quick time.

That was a very different Liston to the one who engaged Ali in Miami. And a very different version of The Big Cat who fronted at the Houston Astrodome.

Against Chuvalo, even at age 38, Williams landed shots that were at least on par with those landed by Foreman - they clearly hurt and backed Chuvalo up, no question, Chuvalo was already busted up early - Cleve simply wasn’t consistently applied throughout the fight - his gas tank clearly impaired but he upheld more than admirable durability.

 

Yeah, for sure. Cheers.

 

This is but a fraction of your posts pertaining to Williams in this thread.

You've mentioned him literally more than anyone in this thread (including me!) now he's not relevant?

 

https://scontent.***c3-2.fna.fbcdn....FzbRX7WWBtAvkn8BRKVGRX2mTdt2GJxnQ&oe=6451CB92

 

Hmmm gonna have to convert it somehow as my link is blocked for whatever reason.

 

I agree. Liston showed some very impressive boxing skills in this bout, but what impressed me more was him remaining calm after being hit with bombs that very well may have knocked out anyone else in the division at the time, making adjustments and coming back to brutally KO Williams.

I agree. Liston was 4-6 years older, way less active (6 minutes in 2 years), and fighting with an injury.

I think we all know, if it weren't for that gunshot, Ali would've been the one flat on his back.

I always see Ali's critics say this win over Williams wasn't impressive because Williams was a shell of himself. He was. But what also must be mentioned is other contenders like Chuvalo and Foster (don't even ask me how he got in the top ten) struggled greatly with an even further depleted version of Williams, with Foster rupturing his eardrum in the first bout, rocked in the second and on the losing end of an exchange before ending matters.

Nobody ever dominated even post gunshot Williams as quickly, easily, in the manner Ali did. Even Foster, a tremendous puncher took far longer to beat Williams than Ali did, and as alluded to above, struggled doing it.

So I'm unconvinced this isn't an impressive win just because Williams was shot.

 

Though not the same Williams, still an impressive win.

It isolated and highlighted to best advantage the attributes that gave Ali the lead, in varyinf degrees, over the rest of the field - speed, reflexes and perhaps most importantly (since it was degraded the most upon Ali’s comeback) - Ali’s prime mobility.

Mere cms often separated Ali from the harm other fighters had to absorb. Cleve barely landed on Ali - a long left is all that I can recall from the films.

A vicious uppercut appeared to land from the rear view - but another angle revealed that Ali avoided it by a very narrow margin.

And Ali’s win should be gauged within the context of Cleveland’s performances otherwise, as at the time - and Ali did make Cleve appear even worse off than he was.

But, all in all, Cleve was still a degraded version of the 59/60 Williams that fought Liston.

 

Good thing he did. If he didn't it would've been lights out.

Fun Fact: Williams actually retired after this fight, saying something along the lines of "their's no use, as long as this guy's around!" I believe he only came back once Ali was exiled.

 

Note too - Ali ordinarily showed a high degree of disdain for going to the body - but he gave Cleve several good shots to the body in their fight.

Nothing wrong with that, alls fair in love, war and boxing - just say’n’. However easy Ali made it look, I’m sure he didn’t want Cleve hanging around for too long. The man could still hit a ton.

Have I exceeded the allotment of time and space reserved for Cleve? - as if there could ever be TOO much focus on Williams. Lol, that’s crazy talk. And there’s still the birthday pic to come.

 

A more competitive thread and fight would probably be Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson. Or Ingemar vs Leon Spinks.

Cleve might even have more wins over (genuine/real/true/factual/actual/authentic) top 10 contenders than Ingemar.

 

Ingo comfortably outboxed him and then you're talking about the last 10 seconds of his career
Liston lost against Leotis Martin. Big deal?

 

Without realising it, you've validated Swag's point.

You can claim Liston looked bad in a particular moment and a counter claim could be made about Ingo. It's futile. The best means of comparing 2 or more fighters relative standings are to compare the best wins and prime losses from their careers as a whole. I've done so for Liston and Ingo in this thread and invited you to. You refused, because there's no way you can do so credibly and support your position Ingo shouldn't be ranked far behind Liston.

I'll try another question. Where are do you rank Liston and Ingo all time at HW?

Liston is my #9. I've only gone down as far as 25 and Ingo isn't amongst them. Liston is a lock for top 15 and he probably appears on more top 10 lists than he doesn't. I don't ever recall seeing Ingo ranked top 20. Perhaps you will change that for me? Though my guess is you'll reply you don't do lists, for the same reason you ducked the top 10 wins comparison.