Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Thanks for saving me a post. This clown doesn't realize he proved my point even further with his worthless comparison. At least he had the balls to quote me directly this time.

 

"I think we all know, if it weren't for that gunshot, Ali would've been the one flat on his back."

I don't "know" that and I don't think that. A man who went 10 twice against Billy Daniels is going to be too much for prime Ali?

Williams' critics do make a valid point that his supporters build him to the sky on flimsy evidence. Basically, he had one good round against Liston before the roof fell in. DeJohn, not exactly a world beater, lasted longer in one fight with Liston than Williams did in two. Old and fading Valdes cut up Liston just as badly and lasted just as long.

 

That he was joking stands out like dog balls.

 

It was quite obviously a joke. Don't know how that wasn't clear enough.

He also drew with the highest rated heavyweight in the world not named Sonny Liston (A majority draw actually, two judges scored it a draw and one had Williams ahead by three points) and nearly floored him something Liston couldn't do. He also knocked out a near prime Ernie Terrell, and nearly beat him in the rematch with damaged hands.

Dejohn used survival tactics Williams didn't, like hanging on to Liston and squatting down to avoid punishment. Clipping from Wisconsin State Journal - Newspapers.com

Clipping from St. Louis Post-Dispatch - Newspapers.com

Also if you want to go that route, Williams beat Daniels twice "punishing Billy Daniels so much in a 10-round decision that Daniels has never been the same fighter since" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57246919/simpsons-leader-times

while Dejohn was floored SIX times (including a 9 count in the opening seconds of the fight) and stopped by Daniels.

Untrue. Valdez didn't cut Liston up at all. He swelled his eye, which was reportedly from a thumb.

If you're trying to make an argument that Valdez was as durable than Williams, Liston himself disagreed. "He wasn't the toughest guy I've ever fought. Cleveland Williams and Johnny Summerlin both were tougher." Source: Clipping from The Shreveport Journal - Newspapers.com

 

It literally couldn't have been clearer.

 

"Valdes"

It has been close to 64 years, but my memory is that Jack Drees said Liston was bleeding from aside his eye. Again it has been 64 years, but my memory is that Valdes held his own in the first two rounds. Liston KO'd Valdes with a right off my recollection. Valdes was sitting as the count went on and then tried to get up at about 8 or 9 but didn't make it.

I have never seen the Valdes fight on film, only on TV back in the day. The two Williams' fights I have seen on films. I think Williams only did well in the first round of the first fight. Otherwise, he got beat up.

I would say they did about equally well.

 

Correct. It's just instinct for me to spell it as Valdez.

All due respect, I'll take contemporary reports, and Liston's own words than your memory from a fight 64 years ago.
Here are some contemporary reports.
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122244092/the-news/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122244212/courier-post/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122244383/the-sacramento-bee/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/122244324/the-reporter-dispatch/

Here are some contemporary reports. I could pull up more if only I have the time. Not one of them describe Liston bleeding or give Valdez, nearly as much credit as you do. Williams clearly at least one a round, and visibly hurt Liston. Valdes's best round was a draw by 2 out of three judges...

His sole achievements was swelling Liston's eye, and Liston claims he was thumbed. He has no reason to lie imo, he didn't make similar accusations against Williams for what it's worth, so I doubt he's looking for excuses.

Again, I'll take Liston's own words. Liston stated Williams was the hardest puncher he faced, thought he'd "cut his throat" and thought Williams was going to knock him out. Oh and he also thought Williams was the hardest puncher he ever faced.

 

I do not dispute that a 64 year memory is shaky.

You are selecting evidence, though. One judge had Valdes leading on points. It was competitive until the sudden knockout.

Liston was certainly the one in the ring taking the punches. Did any of the papers mention the alleged thumbing?

As for the two men, Valdes and Williams, there is no question Valdes rose higher and stayed longer in the ratings and fought more good men and beat more good men.

 

Find any newspaper account of the fight that contradicts my findings and supports your assertion that Valdes busted him up.

It was competitive but mainly because of the relative lack of action, why is why the referees were indecisive of the rounds. At least with Williams their was no doubt he won that first round.

Williams was clearly more successful according to the scorecards, and Liston's own words.

Nope nor did they mention Valdes landing a punch to shut Liston's eye. All we have to go off is Liston's word and I don't see why he'd lie.

Williams was at worst number 4 in the ring ratings, and number 2 in the NBA and WBA ratings, when he was shot. Difference between him and Valdez is he didn't share an era with a prime Ali and Liston, two H2H monsters who were the only people ahead of him in the latter 2 organizations.

Also, had he not had damaged hands, he likely would've won that second fight with Terrell which was already razor close as was (that I scored for Williams myself), and have been even higher.

Oh and Williams didn't lose every third time he stepped in the ring.

Williams' shooting may have something to do with that.

Common opponents between Valdes and Williams (excluding Liston).

Omelio Agramonte, Wayne Bethea, **** Richardson, John Holman, Alonzo Johnson, Alex Miteff, Bob Satterfield, Eddie Machen

Valdes record: 4-5 with 2 knockouts

Williams record: 6–1-1 with 4 knockouts[/QUOTE]

 

Understandable. It would certainly be very difficult to remember accurate details of a fight so many years back from a one off viewing.

Just re Liston vs Williams 2 - The Big Cat certainly had his moments in round 2 also - the very same round in which he was KO’d.

Note in round one, while duly wary of Liston, Williams is there to fight despite the devastating KO loss in their first fight.

Likewise, Liston is not at all unduly reluctant either - despite the brutal successes Cleve enjoyed in the first fight.

Round 1 is a barely contained “feel out” round.

Williams is boxing nicely with fast hands but clearly looking to land the big shots - meanwhile Liston is boxing beautifully, and his punches are always big anyway, even when harnessed within a disciplined skill set.

Re the linked video below, at 5:30, Williams makes his first real heavy contact. He sniffs blood and goes for broke.

During the sequence of his landing unmistakable power punches he lands a huge right hand that drives Liston’s head partly through the ropes - the insane punch I’ve referenced before.

Liston takes it all and just continues plying his cool, calm game - extremely well educated and mentally disciplined fighter.

Sonny lands big shots back - power shots absolute, not just powerful looking shots relative to Cleve’s chin - a chin that is often underrated anyway.

Take away Liston’s pair of KO wins over Williams, through to his being shot and a short period following that (prior to facing Ali), the Big Cat had ONLY 1 KO loss to his name - an early career KO loss to Bob Satts.

Post gunshot, Williams was obviously physically degraded and past his salad days at any rate so KO/stoppages beyond that time cannot be taken as an absolute measure of his prime resilience - in fact, they shouldn’t be factored too much at all, imo.

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Excellent post Pugs. I've always found Williams chin underrated as well. I always found the glass chin label he seems to get unfair. Sure he was stopped by Liston early but he was engaging in a firefight. I doubt anyone from that era would've faired any better fighting Liston the same way.

He didn't exactly crumble after getting hit the first time. He actually shook off some bombs and gave better than he got at times!

Post-shooting his durability obviously degraded. But even so it was still solid, he went the distance with Chuvalo taking quite a lot of punishment, and had the edge in an exchange with Mac Foster, who's also said to have ungodly power, before succumbing.

Like I said earlier, this makes Ali's performance against Williams that more impressive so I honestly can't see that win being overrated like many here do. Honestly, with the amount of criticism he gets with that win, I think it's becoming a tad underrated imho.

 

Great IV with Liston conducted by Jim Jacobs. Louis makes an appearance also - Joe not looking so small next to Sonny btw

Liston confirms his previously quoted words that nominated Williams as the hardest puncher he ever faced.

Go to 3:35 for Sonny’s confirmation .

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Yeah, at times, Williams definitely gets a bum rap in the chin dept. But, without being apologetic, when you objectively break it down he wasn’t so chinny.

A good comparison with an old timer might be the case sometimes posited against Jack Johnson.

An early career KO loss to Choynski and dodgy KD by Ketchel, and for some, that’s “enough” to be labelling him as having a weak beard - forgetting the balance of his career otherwise that defies such a notion.

 

Just rewatched the fight again and noticed both men, particularly Liston have a very underrated defense.

I always liked the exchange at 4:18. Liston loads up for a huge left hook, Williams dodges it, and goes for a counter, but Liston immediately covers up, almost as if he knows what's coming.

Liston had a very uncanny ability to anticipate his opponents' next move. Very underrated ring IQ.

 

Great call. Both guys, in that small window showed great D. That’s some more TMI for my dawg man @JohnThomas1. Poor JT, he isn’t jiggled up with the word(s) and letters currently on the street.

Williams anticipated that hook very early in its launch and you’ve already covered Liston’s preparedness for the counter.

Also, if that hook had landed…virtually all over right there and then imo - though the end wasn’t long off anyway. But even with such power behind the hook, it was very tight and Liston’s balance was perfect despite the punch missing.

I never tire from watching their two fights. Heavy concentration of power and skill, no f*cking around whatsoever.