Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

so what.
I rate Sonny at #15 and Ingo at #21.

 

Against their best 2 opponents Sonny is 3-0 and Ingo 2-2.

SL stands for Sonny Liston.

 

Well at least you've had the guts to list your ranking of the 2.

You have Liston lower than i can recall seeing him and Ingo higher than I recall seeing him.

 

Somewhere around place 40 would seem low given that the Ingo - Patterson trilogy was very close. 1 clear victory each and the third fight having knockdowns both ways and ending with two rabbit punches. Ingo should have been allowed to continue.

 

What makes McGrain's list so credible? It would be most interesting to hear his reasoning.

 

Firstly he's a boxing historian, he'll have put thousands of hours into researching his subject matter.

Secondly, having also read his top 50 lists in the other original 7 weight divisions and his top 100 p4p list, he's clearly balanced and impartial, a couple of things it's obvious to any reasonable minded person reading this thread, that you and Chok aren't, as multiple others have alluded to.

That said, if you want a greater breadth of opinion, take a look here - https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/top-35-all-time-reveal-boxing-survey-series.653021/ - 24 of our fellow classic forum posters ranked their 10 greatest ever HWs and then a points based system is used to rank them based on cumulative votes. 27 HWs received votes in total from these 24 posters. Ingo got not a single vote, so I can't tell you where he ranks as an average amongst these 24 voters, just that's is somewhere lower than 27. Liston was 11th.

 

That's actually not a logically sound conclusion as they didn't ask people to rank their top 27. That a few rank Ibeabuchi in their top 10 and that he ended above Patterson doesn't mean that Ibeabuchi would have ended above Patterson if the same group of people had ranked their top 25, for example.
There is also an argument to be made about a boxer being underrated. It shouldn't be a popularity contest after all.

 

He spent hundreds of hours to come up with this list? Ingo at 41 and Machen at 45. Come on...

How some of those names are ranked higher than Johansson is astonishing.

50. Chris Byrd
49. Michael Moorer
48. Bob Pastor
47. Harry Greb
46. Ron Lyle
45. Eddie Machen
44. Jerry Quarry
43. Zora Folley
42. Harold Johnson
41. Ingemar Johansson
40. Jimmy Bivins
39. Tom Sharkey
38. Archie Moore
37. Ernie Terrell
36. Jimmy Ellis
35. Tommy Burns
34. Tim Witherspoon
33. Jimmy Young
32. Jack Sharkey
31. Elmer Ray

 

I have full confidence in my knowledge and research. The historical evidence and film is free and accessible if you know what you are looking at.

no I think #15 is about right. It’s pretty generous for a one defence champion who lost the title by kayo.

 

Yeah, fair comment that we should not read much into the names beyond the top 20 on that list, for the reasons you've given.

Anyway, as enjoyable as it's been, I think I've demonstrated conclusively that the vast majority of people with good knowledge of boxing history, rank Liston substantially ahead of Ingo, for reasons multiple posters have explained in this thread. No big deal if you disagree with the majority, you're just going to forgive me for being confident in my own mind that they are right, whilst you and Chok are wrong.

 

first time around Ingo beat both by shattering kayo whereas Sonny only managed the knockout against one of them. And he got them second time around.

 

He has Tyson above Douglas too.

 

You may have confidence in your knowledge, having read your comments in this thread, as well as the replies of others, I and the majority of other posters do not.

 

They both won single fights with Machen. Ingo lost a series to Patterson whilst Liston won his series with Floyd as conclusively as any in history.

 

we would be wrong to say Ingo should be higher rated than Sonny. But
We are wrong to say That they are closer than people think? I don’t think it can be conclusively proved that there is a vast gulf between the two. They fought at a very close timeframe championship period where most things are comparable and even base their legacy from the same two opponents.