Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Ingo lost the series yes. But Sonny got sloppy seconds on Floyd. Don’t forget that.

 

Wrong in my opinion, yes.

You rank them 6 spaces apart. I've seen many HW lists good and bad, but dont recall ever seeing them ranked so close.

So the question I have to ask myself, is - which is more likely to be correct, my view and the views of all the people who have produced every other list I've seen, or your view? Given you've said in this thread that Cleveland Williams fought George Foreman, I haven't spent long pondering the answer to that question.

 

but these posters are less interested in researching all of the facts and are demonstrably less confident in forwarding their own all time ratings of the champions. In that department they are less equipped and unqualified if they can’t debate a selection r themselves with any confidence.

 

Nonsense. He beat a 27 year old Patterson, coming into his prime, who was rejuvenated after avenging his loss to Ingo not once, but twice. Floyd went on to record some of his finest wins after he fought Liston, let alone after his series with Ingo.

 

perhaps the reasoning behind the other lists were not explained as graphically as I am willing to. Without this explanation Perhaps their lists are based entirely on popularity and favouritism? If we don’t know why how do we know people are not copying each others lists without thinking for themselves, without being able to describe for themselves why they arrived at these fantasy lists. I’m happy to debate anyone on my list.

The list where the author is willing to explain his criteria.

so you are wasting my time pretending you have formulated an educated opinion?

yes. You don’t have one do you.

no, I said they shared a ring with each other. foreman sparring with Williams and saying he hit him hard is a well repeated quote on this forum after all. Whenever the worth of Williams resume is examined in any detail at all on here someone pipes up about what Foreman thought of williams punching power. So what George says must count for something on the matter.

 

I’ll give you that. Floyd doesn’t always get the credit he deserves for Chuvalo, cooper, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena.

However, usually whenever a great fighter is knocked out first time around, a reigning champion especially, usually it’s him who gets the credit not the second time around guy.

I get the whole unprecedented two one round kayos thing. And that’s why ultimately Sonny was a better champion, in that he successfully defended the title where Ingo did not, but Angelo Dundee for one always said Floyd was psyched out both times. That’s not Sonny’s fault, he took care of business. But consider that view. If he was psyched out it could explain the unprecedented double first round kayo. It might not. Just saying.

 

I assure you I've completed substantial analysis and given a lot of consideration to my rankings, as have others. Having read your posts in this thread, I just have no respect for yours.

You've already been called a Liar on this thread by another poster. During a conversation where posters cited Liston taking Cleveland Williams punches as indication of his solid chin, you posted "Against Ali Foreman took the ten count. Against Ali, Miteff took the ten count. Both guys shared a ring with Williams. Food for thought". The clear implication being you were under the impression that Miteff and Foreman fought and weren't stopped by Williams. In reality, Williams also stopped Miteff and didn't fight Foreman. There's clearly no connection between the point you thought you were making and a sparring session. Referencing a Foreman quote about Williams hitting him hard in sparring would have supported the position that Liston had a good chin because he took Williams punches. That's the position you were trying undermine. Poor attempt to cover up your lack of knowledge.

Im done here, as JT stated earlier in this thread, engaging with you is futile. You're biased, your knowledge is lacking and you're liar. I'll not waste any more time on you either.

 

You've pretty much nailed everything. One other thing is "Against Ali, Miteff took the ten count" that was a lie. Miteff was stopped on his feet against Ali as he was against Williams.

 

If you think his eye injury was bad, you must've been on the edge of your seat for the Williams bout. "I went out to feel him out in the first round and he almost knocked me out. I thought he had cut my throat" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54153015/daily-news-post/ Williams was closer to a stoppage by Liston's own admission.

Since you're taking Liston at his word, are you also going to believe him when he says he was thumbed in that same quite?

That would be a gross overexaggerating if I've ever seen one. Zero mention of the ref considering stopping the fight. It's going to take a lot more than a swelled eye to

I never said it was a Liston domination. Reread my post. You stated Valdez did as good as Williams. He edged one round on a scorecard, the other two judges gave a draw. Williams dominated that first round with Liston and took it on all three scorecards.

As for the cut, I stick with it as my memory. Not only that, I remember a photo in the True Magazine Boxing Yearbook which was shot from behind Valdes, there was a trickle of blood coming from the side of the eye to the cheekbone. Obviously, that was not the critical injury.
For me, this is a case of focusing on a sapling rather than the forest. I should have written "severe eye injury" rather than "cut" to prevent the discussion going down a rabbit hole.

Considering the basis of your assertion that Valdes gave Liston a better fight lies on that eye injury, your entire argument would be out the window if that eye, the only indication of any success against Liston, was illegal or accidental (I don't think Valdes would do such a thing on purpose).

Yeah I saw that, they seemed to be reiterating similar comments' Valdez's corner made. In any event, I'll take Liston's own words.

Not sure if he was saying Summerlin and Williams were more durable or tougher fights (or both). Valdez beating Summerlin at the very end of his career who was suffering from hypesthesia at that point (also leading on two cards and staggering Valdes) doesn't undermine Liston's statement either way.

 

@Pugguy Let's see if this one work. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/O...z85uyeWoFoNpgJ7A9Hg3dYs-8rHvrT-M66pWvpHLRyVYE

 

Just to get one thing out of the way. Even if Ingo had a bigger punch than Liston, his inability to hurt Liston wouldn’t suggest that his punch wasn’t all that - nor would it suggest that Liston wasn’t a big puncher himself.

Assumptions that Ingo couldn’t hurt Sonny are based on the proven steel in Liston’s chin. You’re conflating and confusing power with resilience.

Liston’s chin was clearly far superior to Patto’s - but I do give Floyd credit for all the times he got back up (almost always) - so I’m not as harsh on Patto’s whiskers as some.

Testimonies are what they are - not evidence in their own right.

As much as I’ve seen and read on Sonny, his testimony correlates with the vision in his fight vs Williams. I would only say I agree with Sonny’s testimony not for its sake but solely based on what I can see for myself.

As to Patto nominating Ingo as the hardest puncher. I’ve read his take before. He expanded on it by saying he didn’t remember getting back up each and every time vs Ingo but with Liston he did remember when he arose after a KD.

That’s fine but Patto did keep getting back up - which Floyd accented on in his own favour - In the same IV, Floyd also said that he was never down when the ref counted 10 - , which I took to mean never counted out.

BUT, and anyone please correct me if I’m wrong, Floyd was on the deck when counted out on the first Liston fight - a distinction Liston holds on his OWN. No one, not even Ingo, managed that - and Liston did it in a very short space of time.

I don’t want to veer off and imply that Ingo didn’t have a terrific right hand punch. He certainly did. Though, the first right hand he landed to bring an opponent undone was always his best - his follow ups were more the clubbing variety. After the first KD in fight 1, Floyd was no longer there - but Ingo still couldn’t keep him down.

As compared to Ingo, Liston definitely hit more consistently hard with both hands - he was, by far, the “better puncher”.

As to single shots, on his very best day, sure, Ingo could pull one out that could possibly equal, even perhaps exceed, Liston’s own best single punch.

Even Earnie Shavers afforded that possibility to other fighters - the chance of landing a shot that approximated to his own power, their best shot - their Sunday punch.

However, the key was Earnie always hit hard, his each and every punch was super hard - therefore Earnie said no one punched as consistently hard as he did - and that claim holds up to the vision.

I think it possible that Ingo could stun Liston with his absolute best single right hand - but besides that, it would still be all Liston imo, - a KO win by round 2 or 3.

 

Excellent post!

Regarding the bolded. Cobb stated Norton once hit him as hard Shavers ever did. Only difference being, Norton managed it once, and Shavers did it every time he landed.

 

Nice! Thanks for that man.

 

Even if I only managed it for one punch - I’d take that as helluva compliment.

 

I love the cake!!