Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

The implication was Ali knocked out better fighters than Williams. You read too much into it.

And it’s not a lie to say Ali knocked out better fighters than Cleveland Williams did.

 

I am a liar Because I think Ali knocked out better fighters than Cleveland Williams?

 

Greg has put on an absolute clinic in this thread. He should be getting paid for the lessons he's imparted.

 

Most people will agree with the crowd as it is more comfortable. The crowd will be influenced by a few posters / writers.

Take yourself for example. You are influenced by McGrain because he is a historian. You know in which bracket you will place Ingo based on his list. Who was McGrain influenced by? His list doesn’t seem unbiased. He would probably have wanted to place Ingo even lower but realized that he couldn’t place him below Machen. So he placed Machen at 45 and Ingo at 41. It could be argued that Ingo should be closer to Patterson than to Machen the way Ingo destroyed Machen and as closely matched Ingo and Floyd over the trilogy.

The ridicule Johansson got from american journalists before becoming a champ was extreme. They were all wrong yet they influence people. I’ve read that Bert Sugar likened johansson to a drunk as he ko’d patterson. Maybe they can’t admit being so wrong and I can’t see an american champ with the same pedigree getting that kind of disrespect. He is now getting ranked next to Quarry and Ellis despite having a superior record and having one of the best right hands ever. You can’t take away that Ingo fought the best at the time and only Liston is missing. He beat every opponent and only lost to Floyd in a very close trilogy and the final fight stoppers controversially. That is a fantastic achievement.

 

You assume then that Ingo would just stand in front of Liston rather than using his quicker feet to avoid his big punches? Johansson was often cautious and knew that he could ko his opponent in any round and given Liston’s power, I can’t see that he would be foolish enough to trade bombs with Liston.

 

Those ranked when Ingo was include.
Hunter
Valdes
Folley
DeJohn
Carter
Baker
Bethea
Miteff
McMurtry
Cleroux
Moore
Jackson
Pastrano
Satterfield
Harris
Liston
That's 16 contenders he didn't fight,and you're talking as though he cleared out the division .
Apart from Patterson and Machen, name a Ring ranked contender he beat?

 

I don't know Greg very well ,but reading his content I believe he forms his own opinions.
I'd give both Quarry and Ellis very good chances against Ingo.

Bert Sugar was a bull shitting salesman.

 

Let’s right that ship immediately - I didn’t state or imply that I made any such assumption - you’ve actually assumed an assumption on my behalf. Crazy, isn’t it?

I dealt with your previous conflation. Now we’re on to Ingo playing it cautious. Nothing I wrote suggested that Ingo wouldn’t try to move.

Ingo could move pretty well, and had a decent jab in supplement - but Liston’s jab was far superior and if Ingo is playing it cautious, then during that time he won’t be landing anything if any significance to arrest Liston’s advance and keep Sonny off him.

Rest assured, Ingo’s movement, at it’s proven best, has been accounted for - and Liston still catches up with him before too long.

 

Bert Sugar likened Johannson to a drunk as he KO’d Patterson? Are we sure on that - if anyone, that description would fit poor Patterson after the first KD, Floyd didn’t know if he was Arthur or Martha, thereafter.

 

since the best two opponents either Liston or Ingo ever beat are the same two guys…the third best opponent of Liston is going to be Roy Harris or Zora Folley….not Eddie Machen. both Folley and Harris were able to lose to Henry cooper in real life anyway. This is a draw at best surely? Even if we submit the fact that copper was inexperienced you could replace Cooper with Brian London who also beat Folley. Or Erskine who was as capable too.

fight number 4 cannot be a Folley level fighter. It’s time to use Harris here. Again I think he’s level with London or Erskine.

No way can Bygraves be used here. Ingo beat European champions like Cavicchi and Neuhaus who should rank above Bygraves here. Still, Williams should be favoured over either Cavicchi or Neuhaus. I think this is the major difference between Liston and Ingo opponents other than the lesser number of opponents, Williams is that extra Folley, Harris level guy that Ingo lacks on his resume.

DeJohn probably isn’t any further ahead of Neuhaus or Richardson. He had competitive fights with Richardson anyway.


. It was mostly a contest of clinches and there were no knockdowns, but Richardson opened up a cut over DeJohn's left eye in the 5th and jolted him with four hard rights that made the New Yorker hang on in the 8th. While the sellout Wembley Stadium crowd voiced their objection to the decision by British referee Bill Williams, the sole judge, Richardson was a picture of dejection." -Associated Press

• Unofficial AP scorecard - 5-4-1 DeJohn
• A companion 10 rounder on this card pitted Nino Valdes against Brian London.

Post fight comments

• "They told me Richardson was a soft touch. He wasn't. He's the best I've ever met, and he'd lick a lot of fighters back home." -Mike DeJohn

• "I won. I made the fight. The big crowd can't be wrong." -Dick Richardson

Harris has been used up already..he’s at least the fourth highest ranked fighter Liston beat. He’s not the seventh best opponent Liston fought. At number seven you are in Wayne Bethea or Henry Clark territory. Cavicchi is better than this too. And so is Neuhaus. Ingo is down to Ten Hoff kind of level by this point a guy he’s fighting in his 12th pro fight a time where Liston was losing to marshal.

Wepner is no better than Richardson. He really isn’t.

you probably should have.

 

Note the question mark. It was a question.

 

When was ingo supposed to fight all of these guys? He fought for the European title in just his 15th bout and still managed to fight 8 guys who were ranked at some stage and retired having beaten every opponent he ever faced.

 

The three stand out boxers at the time were Liston, Patterson and Ingo. The next after them is probably Machen.
I think that knocking out Machen and Floyd in back to back Matches makes up for not fighting a few more of the names on your list. He had also faced stiff competition from an early stage in his career and never slipped up once. He had a very high lowest level and therefore I think he deserves to be heavily favoured against all except Liston.

 

Agreed. Nothing incorrect here.

 

Against Machen and Floyd 1 it was pretty much Ingo’s first right in each fight that determined the outcomer. Aside from how powerful the right was, has there been a more accurate power punch?

Only an extremely intelligent boxer is able to deceive his opponent to that extent that they allow 100% accuracy with a right that is seen as the boxers only weapon. Two world class fighters that is. They only had to avoid that right…

Often the opponent didnt see it coming and Floyd described as one you don’t recover from. Videos from other fights supports this view.