Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

No other explanation required here. Nailed it.

 

And yet the fact that Henry Cooper was coming off a ko loss to Joe Bygraves doesn't stop you seeing a win against him as evidence that Johansson could do the same thing to Sonny Liston.

The main difference of course is that by the time Daniels rematched with Williams he had bounced back from that disaster with a win against #1 contender Doug Jones.

 

hang on, I have never used the cooper win as reason to select Ingo over Sonny. I’ve said all along Sonny after 1960 beats Ingo.

The combination of kayo wins over Machen and Floyd by 1959 lead me to imagine Ingo could conceivably be favoured over the 1958-59 version of Sonny Liston who was barely a year into a comeback from his prison episode and had not yet scored these kinds of wins yet.

once Sonny gets past Harris, Machen and Folley…around the time Ingo has since lost to Floyd..Ingos stock has rightly gone down..and Sonny himself has reached a higher echelon.

So I don’t know what entitled you to believe I base the earlier edge Ingo might have had solely on a Henry Cooper win.

And that’s why the lowly regarded Daniels remains Williams best rated opponent that he was able to outpoint.

people need to stop basing Williams crushing losses to Liston as proof he can beat other champions. Sonny beat better qualified opponents than Williams for that kind of expectation.

 

Oh, ok. I guess it must be someone else who thinks beating the unranked, 14-4 Cooper was a "great win".

 

It is a great win in light of where henry would be rated by the time Ingo was champ. Cooper had already beaten London in one round. He’d already beaten Bygraves. And by the end of the following year of losing to ingo he’d beat Erskine, Richardson and Zora Folley. That’s pretty good isn’t it?

That’s not saying this solely proved Ingo beats Liston because Ingo has brutal knockout wins over Machen and Patterson in back to back fights that eclipse this Cooper KO. You put Erskine and Cooper together with Cavicchi and Machen and Patterson and it makes for a nice resume compared to Listons 1958 roster.

All I am saying is Ingo was very handy at this time. His record in 1959 is better than given credit for…and I should be allowed to say this Thankyou very much!

 

Cooper was extremely cautious of Ingo's Bingo and hardly opened up at all. Ingo's just kept jabbing without showing any threat. After a few rounds Cooper became a bit more relaxed and opened up. That's when Ingo unleashed his hammer. Unfortunately there is no video of the KO as the cameraman lost his patience and began filming the crowd.

The same strategy worked as a charm also against Machen and Patterson. The world's two best boxers at the time. Knocked both of them out in less that 4 rounds in total.

Would the same strategy not have worked against a more experienced Cooper? I think the outcome would have been the same. Unless you believe that Cooper was a greater boxer than Machen and Patterson, there is no reason to doubt it.

I understand that some people prefer the bodybuilder type swinging wildly until one shot tags his opponent. In that case it is easy to overlook Ingo's more methodic style but that style worked for him. Considering his great footwork and unique right hand, it was a very intelligent way to fight and took him all the way to the top.

 

On one hand, the punches from CW that hit Liston were all murderous. On the other hand, CW was not able to land even one of those punches against Machen? In an entire match?

Williams must have been pretty lousy then. Or did he land an equivalent punch? In that case Machen must have had an absolutely legendary chin too. It must prove that Ingo could not KO Machen because Liston taking CW punches proves that Ingo couldn't KO Liston.

Somehow Ingo did KO Machen. It must mean that CW didn't land a good punch the entire fight. CW must therefore have been a pretty lousy fighter. Otherwise this fact doesn't prove a thing.

The way some posters cherry-pick certain facts from one fight and then ignore them in other fights is just too good.

Admittedly, Machen did have a great chin. Only other fighter to stop him was Frazier but Frazier couldn't KO him. He would have gone the distance most likely had the ref not stopped it. Only Ingo KO'd Machen in his entire career and he didn't even need a full round to do so.

 

This has to be the most ironic and delusional post I've ever seen on this board. I can only assume you're trolling at this point.

 

It's actually proving how your post is illogical.

 

Billy Daniels chin must have been titanic. He lasted twenty rounds with the beast that was big Cat Williams didn’t he? Only for a far less celebrated German boxer to beat him inside the distance either side of these tedious bouts.

 

Just imagine what awesome chins Lloyd Barnett, Erik Jensen, Ansell Adams, Uber Bacilieri, Hans Friedrich, Archie McBride and Brian London must have had to survive everything the mighty Johansson could throw at them. Presumably none of them were ever knocked out by anyone else?

This game is quite easy to play, isn't it?

 

But nobody claimed that those people were impossible to knock out based on going the distance against Ingo, or did they?
Some people tried to use the CW-Liston fight as evidence that Ingo would be unable to hurt Liston. That is the difference.

 

AND....let's not forget how Sonny did in the 2 biggest fights of his career...as Champion....he QUIT SITTING ON HIS STOOL....in Miami in Feb.1964 against the "brutal punching" of Cassius Clay. Then...in May 1965 up in Maine...he took A DIVE in front of the whole world after being his by Ali's killer, "Anchor Punch!". As writer Robert Lypsyte said: "As Heavyweight Champion Of The World...you die trying...Sonny didn't do that...he just sat there!"

 

Sorry, I must have missed the post which claimed that Billy Daniels going the distance with Cleveland Williams meant that he was impossible to knock out.

 

You can say that again. For some reason Having a “Williams proof jaw” unrealistically inflates the prowess of The big Cat at ATG championship level. Not only this but the likeable Texas State champion is tirelessly exempted from comparisons over the magnum 45 bullet, died a hundred times “on a table”, two miles of removed intestines and permanent knock knees and bandy legs from his shooting. He’s either too young, or too injured, or too Williams. It’s like he was born in Bethlehem or something!

it’s such a shame because the career span of Williams is rather fascinating, a 100 fight HW career running all the way from the Post Joe Louis era right up to George Foreman. This is what he should be celebrated for. And not for bogus claims at ATG championship level.