Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

The Cooper win is a good win that got better with age. But it’s probably not Ingos 2nd best opponent in relation to how he was rated at that time.

I would say Machen is the second best opponent.

Third best, which I think is what you were trying to say, was probably Dick Richardson when you factor in when he fought him which was right after Dick demolished 30-1 Karl Mildenburger in just one round in front of 14,000 Germans.

Ingo v Richardson was a high profile fight. Nobody will recall this now, because it didn’t happen in America, but this was a Stadium fight. A huge crowd of 42,000 in Sweden. Quite a showdown and one of the biggest fight outside of the world HW championship that could have been made at that time. Ingo won by knockout of course.

The Cavicchi win was a good international win over a rated fighter as well. On away soil against the current Euro champion. Massive outdoor crowd in Bologna. Still only Ingos 15th pro fight. It also resulted in another KO.

After this there is still the impressive Erskine and Cooper kayos. There’s not many who could have done better on so few fights.

Nobody wants to uncover these facts but they do somehow want to wish a higher profile on a albeit likeable, yet ultimately inconsequential, contender who held the Texas state title.

 

You showed how ”deep” your boxing knowledge is when posting those CW murder punches. When you have to trust your own eyes, it gets a little bit harder i suppose. Easier to jump on the bandwagon and repeat the same lines as the extremely knowledgable Swag. No need to really say more, your credibility is none.

 

This was posted by the great poster Marciano Frazier. I couldn’t agree more:

”Yes, I personally think Williams is very overrated, thanks to the sort of mystique he gives off thanks to his imposing appearance, tales of having been ducked by elite opponents, and perceived status as a rival of Sonny Liston. In spite of having those things, Williams' career frankly lacks substance compared with many other heavyweight contenders'. He defeated exactly one top 10 opponent in his entire near-100-pro-fight career- Terrell in the first fight-, and came up short every other time he stepped up against elite opposition. As impressive as he may have looked, he just never really delivered when it all came down to it.”

”Oh, no, Williams fought other contenders- he just didn't beat them. Even in his pre-shooting career, Williams' record against top 10 opponents is 1-4-1. His best results were going even with Machen and Terrell, both of whom, incidentally, accomplished a lot more than Williams ever did and went even with him in head-to-head matches, but are, oddly enough, typically seen rankedbelow him in historical standing.”

”
You see, this is where my point becomes more apparent- Holman was never a particularly good contender in the first place, had lost five of his last six and was in his final pro fight when Williams fought him, and yet he is brought up as one of Williams' best wins! There are a few others who could be named instead, but they're not much better. The only top 10opponent anywhere near his prime who Williams ever beat was Terrell, and other than that, he was knocked out bySatterfield, drew with Machen, lost the Terrell rematch, and was bombed out twice by Liston- that's the entirety of his big-fight career, even in his prime.

While his resume of wins vs top guys is thin, there is no doubt Williams was dangerous.
Yes, although for whatever reason(judging by film and his opponents' and observers' accounts, his power was very real) he doesn't seem to have really been among the most effective knockout artists- his knockout percentage wasn't too stunningly high even against no-name opposition, and he only ever actually managed to floor or stop one rankedopponent- again, Terrell.”

 

Why are you still claiming that Cavicchi was rated? I've explained to you that he wasn't and I know you use the Boxrec NBA ratings so I'm sure you must have checked it for yourself by now.

 

Those same punches that had you running off in shame until Jason commented?

 

You really have great imagination. I’ve got to give you that.

 

"where is the evidence Ingo recieved 'serious brain damage' from the London fight? Johansson's health never suffered until much later in life. No more than Floyd Patterson or any number of champions."

This is a good point. I think it wise to stay away from armchair diagnosing. And it is not only any number of champions. Many who never boxed or took even one punch end up with the same condition. In Ingo's case he suffered a very devastating KO in the second Patterson fight. Who knows where the roots of his late in life problems originated.

 

Because cavicchi remained unbeaten since his ranking. Ingo received cavicchis ranking upon beating him after all. It was instant. I imagine whomever replaced the cavicchi spot in rankings received a kind of interim position.

 

Cheers Swag,by the way keep fighting the good fight !

 

Cooper was coming off a KO defeat to Joe Bygraves in his previous fight. Cooper was also put down for a ten count by Folley and Patterson later on. Knocking out Cooper wasn't exactly mission impossible.

 

You can imagine it all you like, it won't make it true.

Cavicchi didn't remain unbeaten. He lost to the obscure Hans Friedrich in June 1956, and the NBA unsurprisingly dropped him from the ratings at the end of that quarter.

 

Ingo reached heights in his career that Williams could only dream of. And that is despite having a much shorter career. Quality beats quantity.

 

I had not realised this. Still, let’s not mention Liston broke into the nba ratings out of beating unranked Wayne Bethea who was coming off a loss to nino valdes. From here Sonny had good wins over Mike DeJohn and Valdes. Mike was admittedly ranked, but DeJohn was 2-2 over the last 12 months before meeting Sonny. DeJohns win over Willie Besmanoff (himself 1-2 in his last 3) presumably maintained DeJohns astonishing ranking. Then we have Valdes, a good win for Sonny but a veteran who was recently battered by Charlie Powell and Alonzo Johnson and was 1-3 that year including the crushing loss to Liston. Seems to me European contenders were treated more harshly than contenders operating in America.

This is not to say Sonny did not confirm himself with much better wins than Valdes, Bethea and DeJohn when he polished off Harris and Folley but since we are looking at how Ingo came to be rated let’s not forget these kinds of things when they apply to everyone else.

 

Well if we are handing out compliments you are a fine troll. You've kept everyone busy in a thread that is barely worth two pages, really. That you are keeping a straight face thru it all is no mean feat.

Did you ever answer Swag whether you are Bah Lance? Or should i say "were" as he got permabanned for disgusting sexual comments among other deplorable things.

It's a yes or no question, really simple.

So without further ado, were you Bah Lance?

A. YESSSSSSSSSS
B. no
C. I am a coward.

 

Fair enough.

I don't see any decline whatsoever following the Ingo loss. I believe following his return from the mental institution, is when he dropped down in quality. His rating was a joke.

Weren't you just saying Valdez was better than Williams recently? Why is he being left out?

I provided it numerous times already, but since you're being respectful.

What is Liston's possible agenda to lie about the hardest puncher he'd face? Was he being bribed by Williams team? For the record, he called Dejohn the second hardest puncher he faced which surprised me, as I thought it'd be Valdez.

No "possibly" regarding Baer hitting harder than Schmeling, but more importantly what does any of this have to do with anything?

No but regardless, they did not knock him down our out so they don't fit your criteria. "I would judge by who knocks you down or out."