Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Straight from the horse's mouth in person. It might seem as if Liston said, "Muscles coming out of his a**" re Williams, but he actually said "eyes". Sonny knew not to swear in front of a man of the cloth. Lol.

This content is protected

 

The

The man doing the interview looks to me to be Frank Leahy.

Is it him?

 

I had to check but yeah, it appears to be Frank Leahy. Good spotting.

 

The good Father seemed desperate for Sonny to work with kids in youth centres. The only hope a lot of Wayward kids have are reformed heroes to look up to. It’s a pity Sonny didn’t get more chance to do that king of thing because he was genuinely good around kids.

 

100 % Choc.

He was great around kids and we can see how good he was around adults who gave him an even break at the least and showed some care.

I also liked Sonny’s self deprecating humour when, even though he’d grown larger, he said he still wasn’t about to go looking for the guy who gave him a shellacking some years prior.

If I was that guy I wouldn’t want Sonny to come looking for me either. Lol.

 

"What is Liston's possible agenda to lie"

I don't think he is lying. I think he sincerely felt Williams was his toughest opponent. And I think Louis was also sincere in saying Borchuk hit him harder than anyone. The problem with Williams is that there is such a huge gap between Liston's opinion of him and his actual career accomplishments.

"I don't see any decline whatsoever following the Ingo loss."

Machen KO'd 14 of his first 18 opponents, including Valdes and Holman. He KO'd 16 of his first 24 opponents, also stopping Jackson. For the rest of his career Machen stopped 13 of 40 opponents, and the only name victims are second-tier guys Hunter and DeJohn. He appears to have regressed as a puncher. Interestingly, 5 of those 13 KO's came in the five fights between the Williams and Patterson fights. Taking those five fights out leaves 8 KO's in 35 fights. Machen, off the record, and off the films we have, certainly seems to have been a more dangerous puncher in the mid-fifties than he would prove later. I was around during his "comeback" five KO string, and there was a lot of talk about a "new Eddie" who had now turned tiger. He had often been criticized earlier for being an overly cautious fancy Dan.

"Weren't you saying Valdes was better than Williams recently."

My take is that Valdes clearly had the better resume. He fought a lot more good men and beat higher ranked men. It is not even close on that score. Resumes are something that is not completely subjective. As is often true with Williams, he did not fight Valdes, although Valdes got in the ring with almost every other top fighter active in America during his run as a contender.

"what does any of this have to do with anything?"

I think that is obvious. Hitting an opponent cleanly and often is more important than raw power.

By the way, the first Louis-Schmeling fight is revealing in another way. Louis certainly hit Schmeling. Look how puffed up Max's face was at the end. But Louis never quite hit him "right" to put him in deep water. In the rematch he did right away.

"they did not knock him down or out so they don't fit your criteria"

??? Ali did not knock out Foreman? Douglas did not knock out Tyson?

 

"Untrue. Miteff was 7."

Williams and Miteff fought on 5-16-1961.
Here are the NBA ratings for April, 1961:

Champ--Floyd Patterson
1--Sonny Liston
2--Eddie Machen
3--Henry Cooper
4--Zora Folley
5--Ingemar Johansson
6--George Chuvalo
7--Mike DeJohn
8--Archie Moore
9--Alex Miteff
10-Alejandro Lavorante

Here are the NBA ratings for May 1961

Champ--Floyd Patterson
1--Sonny Liston
2--Eddie Machen
3--Henry Cooper
4--Ingemar Johansson
5--George Chuvalo
6--Alejandro Lavorante
7--Zora Folley
8--Archie Moore
9--Cleveland Williams
10-Bob Cleroux

Appears to me Miteff was ranked #9. He was replaced in the ratings by Williams when Williams stopped him.

"Miteff was green in the bout, having turned pro just a year prior" "Holman was not past it."

As I posted earlier, Miteff was ranked #7 going into the DeJohn fight. He was coming in off a KO of Holman. I don't see how you can have it that Miteff was a nothing win for DeJohn but Holman was a big win for Williams.

"He was #3 the previous year."

Yes, but Holman had lost five of six since then--losing to Bob Baker, Willie Pastrano, Eddie Machen, defeating the gigantic but inept Ewart Potgieter, before losing to Nino Valdes and Alex Miteff. Machen and Miteff had stopped him. In fairness, all the guys he was losing to were rated at one time or another.

"Billy Hunter was at the end of his career"

More so than Miteff? One reason Hunter was rated is that he had defeated Miteff twice. As well as Bob Baker and Tony Anthony. The folks doing the ratings didn't seem to think Hunter's effort against the "obscure" prospect he defeated was as bad as you make out.

"Billy Daniels"

Okay. I accept the criticism. The problem with going over all these guys like Daniels, Rischer, Miteff, Alonzo Johnson, etc., is that they are second tier guys. Williams did not have a nothing career. But putting all these trees under a microscope shouldn't obscure the forest. Williams' career in total is okay, but no where close to worthy of the stature his more emphatic supporters claim for him.

"Williams didn't have a chance to meet those fighters"

The $64,000 question is why not? They fought each other and the super dangerous Liston, but somehow so many of them missed Williams.

"Williams had a better record than DeJohn against common opponents."

Okay. You even dug up Ernie Cab. Williams beat Cab and Daniels, and drew with Machen. Both Williams and DeJohn lost to Liston and Chuvalo. DeJohn defeated Cleroux, who I think was rated higher going into that fight than anyone Williams ever defeated. Cleroux later defeated Williams. If the two had fought, I would pick Williams, but I don't think it is an out fight by any means. DeJohn was in against a lot more tough men during his prime years.

 

Chok, I am glad you saw that my friend. Ha Ha.

 

It would certainly make one panic. Haha.

I really think Sonny could have been the salvation a lot of American Youth needed during those troubled times.

 

Agreed. Miteff had lost 3 of his previous 4 fights. He would go on to lose 4 of his remaining 6 fights.
Only six months after losing to Williams, Miteff was stopped by Ray Batey. That greatly diminishes the Miteff win imo. If even a guy like Ray Batey can do it...

 

There's a pretty obvious and fundamental difference between losing on a cut while ahead on points and the one-sided battering Miteff took against Williams.

 

It’s also pretty clear that a fighter losing so frequently is somewhat limited. Is this considered one of CW’s best wins? This and Holman?

Miteff retired following the Batey defeat. It’s self-explanatory that he was over the hill even if he made a comeback five years later.

 

One thing which struck me about this interview. Liston is well filmed with closeups. Some claim (and apparently Ali at times, but perhaps in his case as a joke) that Liston was much older than his reported age. Even in his mid-forties. On this film he does look to me to be somewhere around thirty, give or take a year or two.

Also, for all the big, ugly bear talk, Sonny was a presentably good-looking fellow to my eyes.

 

What does your last sentence have to do with you disputing Liston's statement?

So did he regress as a puncher, or had he "now turned tiger" and become more aggressive? Not sure where you're going with this.

Regardless, I'm of the opinion (and so was the general public) Machen's decline started, after he returned from the mental institution.

You missed my point by quite some margin. You stated Machen failed to beat his best opponents, and listed Williams among them. Why is Valdez excluded? It's of your opinion he was better than Williams correct?

I agree "hitting an opponent clean and often is more important than raw power" which contradicts your method of assessing power by "who knocks you down or out."
That's why I brought up Tyson's respective performances with Douglas and Ruddock. As you've stated, there are more important variables than power when it comes to KOs and KDs so judging by "who knocks you down or out" is a very flawed method of assessing power.

I was referring to Ruddock and Bruno who failed to floor or KO Tyson

 

Literally almost all of this is untrue.

For example the numerous claims, that Williams only had one win over top ten contenders. Miteff and Daniels 2X were both rated by the ring, and their are others who were NBA and WBA ranked.