Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Simple because he didn't want to face Liston, he would have sh** his pants, same as Patterson did. Ingo fought only once a year 59,60,61(Patterson), and year later in 62 and he had 4 more fights after Patterson .. And no Liston with plenty of time to do it in years ... Taxes, the excuses Well Liston is rated at#9, now he is #3, now he is #1, well he is to slow anyway, well he is not my mandatory right now?? now what do I do?? .... simple, you walk on the other side of the street with Cooper as he did ... Liston KO 2

 

glad to hear it. Certainly not an unreasonable guess. You are as entitled to guess as much as I am.

utter rubbish. Cavicchi was rated by Ring Magazine . Erskine and Cooper were definitely rated when Ingo was champion.

Cavicchi was a 15 round Stadium fighter in Europe. He fought in front of bigger crowds and made more money than many world title challengers with his European championship. How many journeymen had a 43-3 record??

Erskine beat Willie Pastrano and George Chuvalo. He was no slouch. Sure he got walloped by Valdes. Against Nino Erskine was 29-0. And in 57’ Nino was 13 fights fresher than he was for Liston. Does the fact that Machen got beat in one round by Ingo prevent Machen from being a good fighter?

think about this. Dejohn was coming off two losses and a draw to Neal wealch? 1959 Valdes was 1-3, on the skids, had been knocked down three times and stopped by a part time footballer that year. An old timer. Nino practically having his last fight. Besmanoff had already lost 17 times and was only stopped on a cut. Who else did Liston fight in 1959? These were not big time guys. Sonnys best opponents were 1960.

not true. Richardson, Cooper, Erskine, Cavicchi, Machen, Neuhaus and Hoff all made it into the ring Magazine as rated contenders.

exactly. Turning out the same result as Archie Moore? Some might say that at this time Sonny had not yet pulled away from Archie Moore level? Sonny needed a few more wins under his belt.

 

Oh so you think Liston fought a guy paralysed with fear to win the title? Would you say that this gibbering wreck version of Floyd was easier or harder to beat than when Ingo fought him?

 

"Liston fought a guy paralyzed with fear"

I think your point here is right on. If Floyd Patterson was "sh**ing his pants"? what does this say about the quality of these wins?

Liston's supporters do a better job of dragging down his reputation than even his most virulent critic could. One is arguing that the Johansson who KO'd two of Liston's best opponents can't fight, and the other argues that the man Liston won the championship from with his most impressive historical wins was a coward who was frozen with fear when defending his title against Liston.

Personally, I think both arguments are worthless, with the coward argument downright repulsive.

 

"at the time they fought"

Same as Terrell with Williams. Does this mean that Williams' win over Terrell means nothing?

Cooper beat Harris and Bethea. Harris and Bethea were rated when they fought Liston. Why should I consider Harris and Bethea better historical scalps than the man who beat them?

Ratings, after all, are only opinions at a given time, not set in granite lists of who was better than whom.

Nothing wrong with preferring a career evaluation to a monthly opinion in my judgment.

*just on Williams-Terrell, I know some of this board use the same "Terrell was not rated" argument to totally dismiss this win, but Terrell was a 27 fight veteran and I think is better looked at as a top prospect who would soon be a leading contender.

 

on Machen, I said Patterson and Machen were "two of his best" which is not the same as his two best.

"Coward who was frozen with fear"

My post was a reply to a poster saying PATTERSON "sh** his pants" against Liston. It had nothing to do with Ingo. But I must say I find your claims of Ingo's cowardice just as repulsive as the other guys's claims of Patterson's cowardice. I've watched the Sanders fight and Ingo fights Sanders the same way he fought the even taller Hein Ten Hoff. He circled, trying (not successfully) now and then to reach the taller man with a jab and waiting to throw the right. Sanders fought pretty conservatively himself and never left himself open. Ten Hoff did open up and got countered by a right and knocked out. Personally, I think the ref way overreacted. He should have let the fight go on. Nothing wrong with circling to me. What is the shorter man supposed to do. Just stand there and get hit. If Ingo didn't land punches, he would have lost the decision and so be it, but this referee I think assumed the role of Ingo's strategist.

I will repeat what I have already posted.

It is hard for me to buy Ingo as a coward when he got back into the ring for a third fight with Patterson after his downright scary KO by Floyd in their second fight. That is not the act of a coward.

 

Although one year away from beating Folley.

"Bates, Bygraves, Erskine, Neuhaus"

All guys Johansson KO'd.

 

Who said Patterson was coward??.. NOT ME ... Do I think that fight was building and it didn't happen for awhile for political reasons and do I think that Liston was in his head and had a HUGE mental advantage over Patterson. YES I DO. How many times was Paterson KO'D or stopped in round 1 previous ,, not one time !! So you are saying that Patterson wasn't a good enough boxer to make the necessary adjustments to deal with Liston in their second fight?? He knew what was coming!! BS .. he got KO'd in round 1 again... figure it out .. it's not that difficult

 

Well, where I came from and my generation, saying someone "sh** his pants" is calling him a coward.

 

Ya, poor choice of words by me, meant intimidated .. we clearly disagree which is fine, I'm actually defending Patterson in a way , thinking outside the box here I believe, saying that given how outstanding of a boxer Patterson was, that the mental part played a role in these non expected outcomes in 2 go's at Liston. People can dismiss or disagree with the importance of the mental state of mind, that is fine...And yes I could be wrong on this one. I do know one thing though, you are more knowledgeable than me in this era, and I do understand that

 

I might question the more knowledgeable part,

but I agree that that was a very poor choice of words. I myself try to stick to formal writing as slang phrases, while colorful, tend to be over-the-top and distort what you mean.

I don't know how much was mental, but I agree that Patterson didn't seem to have a viable strategy for fighting Liston while making the most of his own assets, which many observers before their fights thought were significant. I have always wondered if Patterson had earlier fought big guys like Valdes and Williams he might have been able to deal with Liston better, but we'll never know.

 

Liston in 1959 was a monster. Ingo would have a much better chance to make a decent showing if this fight happened a few years after that. Not even Ingo's manager would pick him to beat Liston in 1959.

Liston wins here, inside of 4 rounds. Ingo was too small, not defensive enough, not durable enough to last. I would, however, like to see Liston take his bingo, just to see how durable he was.

Ah, boxing fans, had Liston KO'd Ingo in history, the Liston fans would not be gridding Ingo as much, and the Ingo fans would respect Liston more.