Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Bonecrusher stopped Witherspoon in 1 round to win a title and he gave Holmes a reasonable rumble. He did a lot better than poor Marvis against the better fighters in the division.

Ingo really didn't beat many contenders and his fame rests on winning 1 out of 3 against Floyd Patterson having got pole axed in two of them......the same Floyd Patterson who couldn't last a round in two fights against Liston.

 

That’s one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it, most specifically, is that when Patterson and Machen were considered the best two heavyweights in the world..Ingo knocked the pair of them out in back to back fights. One after the other. Proving that, when it counted, there was literally nothing better anyone could have done in that time frame.

until Foreman smashed Frazier and Norton over a similar time frame nobody had ever been quite so emphatic over the worlds top two.

you can’t say that about Bonecrusher Smith or Cleveland Williams.

 

Roy Harris (who fought Sonny Liston and sparred with Cleveland Williams), calls Cleveland Williams his most dangerous and toughest opponent was "when I sparred with Cleveland Williams." http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

"But at one point in his career, he would have spelled real problems for Ali, because at his height as a puncher, Cleveland Williams hit harder than Liston. Before he got shot, the man was awesome But afterwards, he wasn't much of a fighter.. " Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=DfcPAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&lpg=PT134&dq="williams+hit+harder+than+liston"&source=bl&ots=U_vhYf34f8&sig=ACfU3U0-9tFME4JqtaE-xx34tjfj1d-8XA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqlYTguIHqAhUeRDABHQPoDhYQ6AEwAXoECAMQAQ

Ernie Terrell (Who fought Williams twice and sparred with Liston)
His toughest opponent: Cleveland Williams
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-pleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vVINAAAAIBAJ&pg=4798,539251&dq=&hl=en
:"He was the strongest fighter I ever fought"
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6048-ernie-terrell-chicagos-heavyweight-champion
"His left hook is poison."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Sy8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9lAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3337,4585601&dq=&hl=en
"I fought Williams (Cassius Clay's Monday night victim Cleveland Williams twice and I thought that man hit harder than even Liston. But the years were very much on Clay's side." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57503132/calgary-herald/

Sonny Liston:......"Williams hit very hard and he was quick"
"He hit as hard as I could."

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...hUKEwjz2eGWs7XpAhWIg-AKHZlGCKgQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ

"two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man It would have torn some fighters heads off." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news

 

Read my above post. Amazes me that a self proclaimed expert on the era didn't know some people who fought/sparred with both Williams and Liston deemed Williams the harder puncher.

 

If you think a post shooting Williams, who was a shell of himself and still landed himself on the top three hardest punchers Foreman faced, above guys like Joe Frazier, is insignificant, I really don't know what to say.

If Marciano found himself on that list, you'd be preaching it like it was the Gospel!

 

Liston by KO within two rounds.

 

At his peak against London? Wow
You are trolling here
Nice try though

 

What was wrong with him? He was at the ripe old age of 30 years old and coming off an excellent KO win against Richardson.

I’d say he incurred some serious damage in that last round causing him to retire, but he entered that bout at 100%.

 

If that.

 

Ingo had the desire knocked out of him over the series of fights he had with Patterson. Three years they took to complete. That’s too much to stay sharp for either man. Then add the concussions into it. Both of them.

Much like Liston, the insensitive to stay champion couldn’t be maintained in the way the desire previously to become champion had been. For many champions it’s too hard to keep going.

 

Let me get this straight, according to you and Bah, Ingo was passed his prime because he lost his passion, but Williams is fine and dandy after getting shot and dying on the operating table.

 

Ingo had one single fight in 1959 against Floyd. One.....single.....fight.

Liston poleaxed contender Mike DeJohn, fringe contender Williams, Valdez who had been #2 early in the year and Besmanoff while keeping busy. That's a decent year to say the least. In fact 59/60 could well have been his peak. 58 i'd most certainly include in his "prime".

So that's a pretty wierd statement.

Ingo had three wins in 58, two non contender Euro level guys and Machen. So that's one notable effort albeit a fine one.

Liston cleaned up 8 guys in 1958 and i'd say Bethea was top 10 and Whitehurst was probably a fringe type guy.

I'd happily take Liston from 58 onward as a matter of fact. Ingemar just wasn't that great.

 

Whitehurst traveled with Eddie Machen to Sweden and was actually a sparring partner for Ingo ahead of the Machen fight…Ingo flattened him. and he didn’t last more than a day proving Ingo was closer to championship material in 1958 than Sonny was.

Whitehurst, given a fight on the undercard, drew the night of Machen v Ingo against 8-8 Ben wise. This fight happened either side of two ten round fights Whitehurst lasted against Sonny.

consider machens results versus Liston in 1960 and compare Ingo against Machen in 1958 and I think there is argument that, for the flash in the pan that he was, Ingo was quite special in the 1958/59 period.

 

It proves nothing. Liston would have whupped Floyd in 58, 59 or 60. He was whupping everyone he faced from 58 on. It's entirely likely he was the best, very much so, that he was the best heavyweight in the world from mid 58 on.

Liston stopped wise in 4 rounds at the start of 58.

 

Sonny was only getting started in 1958. He was building up into a prime.

Sonny was something like a two year novice when he went away for almost 2 years. Away from gyms and development as a fighter. Over before he got started as a contender. He was starting all over again in January 1958 practically from the beginning.

massive talent that he was, Sonny in early 1958…it’s like Tyson before he fought jesse Ferguson, he still needed to step up.

would you pick Tyson over Thomas or Berbick that year when Tillis gave him such a scare?

Even great champions need to develop.

and Brian London knocked out Roger Rischer in 30 seconds. First punch of the fight.