"in the return he iced Cooper in 2rds." With a right hand. He just landed the one he didn't in the first fight. Doesn't mean he didn't lose the first fight. "Erskine was a weak punching heavyweight" A lot of weak punching heavyweights like Tommy Loughran have gotten pretty high in the ratings though. No one is saying Erskine was great, but he was good enough to beat Pastrano who was in the top five of the yearly heavyweight ratings from 1955 to 1958.
Agree with ya most the time,but Duane Bobick might deserve a look on the glass jaw list,he could look pretty helpless.
Training alone,I would give Sonny a huge edge.He alsmost seemed to enjoy the drudgery of it.Willie Reddish slamming that medicine ball into his gut,the dark gloomy atmosphere,etc.Ingo,was too busy playing with his girlfriend.Sonny grew up in a hard life,prison and all.While the country of Sweden,takes care of their under privelegd better.Ingo was not a hungry fighter.I don't think Sonny would take Ingo out in the first,because Ingo would retreat too much.Yes Machen went twelve with Liston,and a over the hill Machen made it into the tenth with Frazier,does that mean Ingo is better than Liston and Frazier? I know SuzieQ is a wrestler,and I still do some myself.I can tell you it is harder to pin an inferior wrestler,who is just trying to go the limit,than a good wrestler trying to beat you.That is what Machen was doing against Liston,just trying to go the limit.
i have stated many times that liston was a good champion. I even accept he should be favoured against johansson but its not a missmatch by a long long chalk. I am iritated by this hero worship of the liston aura. he was an exciting heavyweight but there is as much to pick apart in his resume as almost any other champion. something that is lost on so many posters on here who attack marciano on shakier grounds. a troll is a fact free idiot who knows nothing about the sport or history of boxing. I am stating only an alternative point of view using facts.
once again london was not knocked out. I am impressed with nino. wish he fought marciano and rematched charles.
Folley did land the right in the first fight it was the punch that put Cooper down in the third,Zora won the first three rounds cutting Cooper in two places, he then went right hand crazy ,trying to finish Cooper and let him back in the fight Cooper piled up points with his jab and took the dec. Folley made no mistake in the return I don't care where Pastrano was rated he wasnt really a heavyweight ,he had lost his fight prior to the Erskine bout to Brian London ,and he would lose his next after, to Alonzo Johnson. Erskine was a Euro level heavy.
1. "Folley made no mistake in the return" No, because an early right hand got Cooper. He didn't prove he could outbox Cooper. 2. "Pastrano wasn't really a heavyweight" Something one could argue he shares with Fitzsimmons, Burns, Tunney, Loughran, Conn, Moore, Harold Johnson, etc, all of whom beat scads of heavyweights. Pastrano did manage to get rated among the top five heavyweights for four straight years, and defeated Rex Layne, Pat McMurtry, Charley Norkus, John Holman, Willie Besmanoff, Alonzo Johnson, and Tom McNeeley among the American or American based heavyweights. 3. "Lost to Brian London" On a cut. Pastrano had outpointed him earlier. An in an outer, London defeated a lot of second-tier Americans such as Billy Hunter, Roger Rischer, and James J Woody, as well as Zora Folley. Yes, Folley was aging, but so was London. 4. "lost his next to Alonzo Johnson" A top ten heavyweight who was coming off wins over Billy Hunter and Nino Valdes. Pastrano reversed this defeat later. 5. "Erskine was a Euro level heavy" Of his eight defeats, seven came against Europeans. He fought three non-Europeans who rated at one time or another in the top five. Valdes, as has been emphasized to the point of tedium, ko'd him in the first round. He defeated the other two, Pastrano by decision, and Chuvalo by a DQ when the outclassed Chuvalo opened a cut with a flagrant butt. 6. On this Euro level--Valdes did great, but some of the top Americans, who defeated Valdes, did not fare as well. Machen--ko'd by Johansson in one. Stopped London. Lost to Mildenberger. (1-2) Folley--Lost to Cooper. Ko'd Cooper. Drew with Mildenberger. Ko'd Zech. Lost to London. (2-2-1) As Zech was never European champion, Machen and Folley ended up an unimpressive 2-4-1 against men who were European or British Empire champions. Machen and Folley were 1-3-1 against European champions (Johansson, Mildenberger, Cooper). These two never proved they were above Euro level.
ingo always stated that the new 8 count rule cost him regaining the title in his final fight with floyd. If that was the case, just how many more times would he and patterson kept on rematching each other had ingo regained it? would liston ever have got his chance if there had been a ingo v floyd IV? would ali have beat liston on the way up to get his shot? what was realy left of either ingo or patterson after their series? personaly I belive Liston was a deserving champion and an outstanding contender, I think he would have got the title one way or the other beacuse he was good enough. I just wonder if there had been no rematch clause in title fights how diferent history would have been.. and if sonny would have been considered as devestating a champion as he is now had he won the title from someone other than floyd.
"You seem determined to make an issue of this" That is what this board is for. I just think you are unfairly dismissing the Euros of the late fifties and early sixties, who seem to have been a notch above the Euros of the early fifties.