Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston

right! none of it means anything... it's the whole Ali, Frazier, Norton, Foreman example

that's basically what I was saying

 

Ingo ducked Liston, Liston W

 

I wouldn't say that. In fact Liston's management turned down an offer to fight Johansson in Sweden, only to re-schedule the fight in Canada but Liston ended up having his boxing license revoked. Later when Liston won the title, Johansson did "duck" Liston by retiring after he performed poorly against London and realized that he was no longer the fighter he used to be.

 

this was by your own admision after the "near coma" enducing fight with floyd. ingos resume is not thin. both floyd and machen had never been knocked out before. he fought a peak erskine who until then was highly touted, angie dundee rated him and knocked out a host of european title level fighters. its a short peak but so was sonnys.

 

This is Machen on Liston from the 2-10-1964 issue of Sports Illustrated:


Machen claims he fought Liston with only one arm, that he hurt his right shoulder sparring with Willi Besmanoff a week before the fight. "I needed the money, so I fought him anyway," Machen says. He also says he might easily have won if he punched more, or at all.

Machen's tactics of changing directions--in and out, side to side--forced Liston to reset himself constantly, and he was seldom in position to punch effectively. When Liston caught him on the ropes, Machen moved inside and tied him up. "When you are on the ropes and he is alongside of you, that's when you are in trouble," says Machen. "If you stand back from him, it's his meat. He says Cleveland Williams is the toughest guy he ever fought. That's a laugh. Williams laid back and got smacked. Patterson did the same thing. Patterson was a changed fighter when he fought Sonny. He used to move a lot, but against Liston there was no action from the waist down. He tried to bob and weave standing flat-footed, and that's silly."
"Liston," continues Machen, "is not the smartest guy in the world. He moves like a train--one track all the time. When he fights a sitting duck like Patterson, or a Williams, he knocks them off the track. I think of my fight with him and I know I can beat him. He jabs, puts everything behind it-then he drops his left hand. No man can get away with that forever."

 

Ingo was not past it against London. Weak hitting London simply exposed Johansson's chin for what it was....Glass.


Ingemar Johansson is getting vastly overrated on these boards. Worst thing I ever did was upload Johansson vs Machen on to youtube. Looks like I tricked people into thinking Johansson was some kind of tyson. I have learned my lesson.

 

No the Cooper fight was three years prior to the fights with Floyd.
Liston did allright against boxer Machen,who was not intimidated.Neither was Williams.
Erskine was a good boxer with no power.Floyd and Cooper are the only punchers that Ingo fought, one of them kod him twice.Ingo never faced a puncher like Williams ,or Dejohn.Sonny's peak was before he won the title he was the number one contender for three years while Ingo and Floyd played, "pass the parcel " with the title.
Ingo beat two top level fighters Floyd once out of three times and Machen.
Neuhas was 32 and past his prime which was European level .
Erskine had been kod in one round by Valdes.Euro level
Ten Hoff was 36 years old and had lost three of his last six fights. Euro level.Ingo's resume is thin.
No Folley,No Williams,No Dejohn,No Valdes NO Baker,No Satterfield,No Moore.No Pastrano, And, definitely NO Liston.

 

1. You really do have all the excuses in the world don't you? Machen was "injured", machen had "one arm". These are excuses. Machen knew exactly who Liston was going in, and knew his reputation. On the otherhand, Machen had no idea who Ingemar was. He walked right into european soil, right into a trap. Sandbagging at its finest. Machen fought to survive against liston, he fought very defensively. Against Johansson, he engaged him. He had no idea who he was.

2. Johansson was a known sandbagger. Even after he brutalized Machen, he tricked the public into thinking it was some kind of hometown fluke. Floyd had no idea.

Read this

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=2349,2023391&dq=ingemar+johansson&hl=en

- The odds went from 3 to 1 all the way to 5 to 1 against, purely because ingo was "holding back" his right hand during training camp according to the Sarasota Herald. This evidence clearly points to the fact Machen and Patterson went into the fight grossely underestimating johansson's right hand.

- One interesting thing. Joe Louis calls johansson "lucky", says johansson looked "Very sloppy".

- Marciano said in his autobiography " this guy johanssons nothing. what the hell did i retire for." He even trained for 2 months in attempt to get johansson back in the ring.


Clearly Johansson was not held in the same light as Liston was



3. I don't know why you critisize Liston so much on the Machen fight. Liston-Machen was fought at a very fast pace for 12 rounds. I highly doubt ingo ever fought at a workrate like that.

 

"But still lingering in my mind was the rememberance of something that I had never talked about, even after Johansson and I were signed to fight. I had never in my life seen a man so scared in the ring, as Johansson was in that fight with Sanders. First impressions are lasting, and that was mine."- Floyd Patterson Victory over Myself

 

Here is Bobby Gleason waging a protest about his fighter, Nino Valdes, getting "ducked" by Cus D Amato.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AJ&pg=4074,5383796&dq=ingemar+johansson&hl=en

 

:good

I can't believe their are some people here who give Johansson a shot against Liston. These are the same people who say Johansson has no shot against Marciano.


People forget Johansson lost 2 out of 3 against Floyd. Once Floyd knew his number going in, he twice knocked johansson out.

 

Johansson tricks the public. Does more sandbagging

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...gemar+johansson+not+throwing+right+hand&hl=en

 

Not High on Johansson

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...88607&dq=sonny+liston+ingemar+johansson&hl=en


"I'd be willing to reclaim my amatuer standing for one night if I could fight him. He can have all the money...and I meant that"- Sonny Liston begging for a shot against Ingemar Johansson