Ingo on Liston against Machen

I think ingo was just another valdez, williams, folley, machen, patterson. he is just another liston victim. Ingemar could not take floyd pattersons power, imagine if trying to handle listons clubbing blows.

 

ok forget it, throw those fights out the window. lets talk patterson fights. patterson knocked ingo out cold, and scored 2 knockout victories over ingemar. liston twice knocked patterson out in 130 seconds, making it look easy.



liston was simply in a much higher class than both patterson and ingemar

 

but back to the sanders fight, ingemar was scared to death of chizzled much bigger sanders, he nearly pissed his pants. I think ingemar would have been scared stepping in the ring with a hulked up liston. He would never have traded with liston, he would have backed off the whole fight until liston caught up with him and leveled him. ingo couldnt take a punch so thats strike 3.

 

Have you read Hemingway's Fifty Grand? It's about an aging welterweight champ taking on his last contender, an up-and-coming slugger named Walcott (not the real Walcott, though, even if he's referred to in not too politically correct terms). "He's just like all these hookers. The only thing he's afraid of is another one of the same kind. He's covered everywhere you can hurt him. He don't care about a left hand in his face."

Brilliant story.

 

I'll have to check it out. Thanks. There's quite a few classic, I'd like to read. Not to turn this forum into a book club, but Hemingway sure had an interesting history. He was part of the lost generation of the first world war. He apparently lived among an ex-patriot community in France for a while, and in fact was from Oak Park Illinois, not far from where I live.

 

He's my all time favourite as writer. I enjoy his short stories even more than his books. He trained boxing for the greater part of his life and really knew about the sport. Fifty Grand is the only time he describes a fight in detail, though, and he does it really well. It's in the book Men Without Women, but can also be found in a lot of other compilations of his short stories. Just like The Killers, Fifty Grand is considered as one of his classics.

 

I wouldnt rate eddie over williams. Eddie said williams is a tougher fight than liston because williams is faster. C Williams would have been a whole different league of a big man for ingo. williams had devastating power combined with handspeed that ingo had not seen before, and williams was 6'3 215lb. personally i think ingo would have been starched by williams.


Heinz Neuhas and Hein Ten Hoff were both at the tail end of there career, and both were nowhere near the punchers valdez and williams were. Valdez knocked neuhas out in 4 one sided rounds, the fights on film.


- Ingemar knocked out machen but he caught machen by suprise. machen had no idea about his right hand, he went in cold and overconfident and came out cold. there was supposed to be a rematch. i think eddie survives the distance in the rematch. eddie knew about liston and williams power, so he ran away vs them and survived.

Folley also beat machen and knocked out cooper in 2 rounds. the loss to cooper was a bad hometown decision, i have the fight on film folley knocked him down and outboxed him. Folley was a much better boxer than ingo, and had a much better jab.

 

Yeah, it's on film and I've seen excerpts of it. I'm a Swede so I'm fully aquainted with what national humiliation Ingo's perfomance was perceived as and the flack he received for it here in Sweden. I'm very impressed by how he managed to bounce back from such a low point, though, to eventually capture the biggest prize in sports. And you can imagine what a big deal that was, and is, in a small country like Sweden. Pro boxing is illegal here, though.

 

No its not impossible, but very unlikely. ingo has a weak jaw and is not a boxer so this fight is not likely to go the distance. you honestly think he can outslug liston? no fighter that tried to slug it out with liston even in retreat made it past 5. C williams valdez patterson all tried and all of these men were just as big punchers as ingo were crucified by liston. sure ingo had the sneaky right, but its not going to bail him out in this fight. even if he times it, liston was big with his 19" neck its going to take more than one shot to put him away......i also think liston with his piledriver jab will get into a jabbing match with ingo, and liston will the first to land. i wouldnt be suprised if this ends in the 1st round. ultimatley ingos only chance is his right hand, a very slim one, while liston can beat ingo in so many different ways. ingo had a very weak jaw, once liston connects its all over.


the real question is will ingo put up a more competitive fight than patterson did?

 

I would like to make three notes on Machen not "expecting" Johansson's right hand:

1. Film was not wide spread at all back then. Liston was one of the best known fighters and Ingo hadn't even seen him in 1962!

2. Patterson knew it was coming, but got knocked out anyway

3. Machen is a defensive specialist with a great chin. Surely it was little more than just a surprising blow. If not, why was he never stopped before or after early in any other fight, including with Liston?


SuzieQ, i think you're degrading Ingo's win here to say it just happened because of surprise. It's like saying Foreman only beat Frazier because he turned out to be better than an amateurishly looking, wild puncher. Johansson had something very special. His right hand was very fast, and more importantly, very well-timed. As someone who rates Walcott, you should appreciate this quality.


By the way, do you think Clay's knockdown of Liston was a real (flash) knockdown or part of the dive as well?

 

thats not true, ingo did not throw his right in training camp. pattersons camp came to believe the machen knockout was something of a fluke. they really had no idea how sneaky and powerful his right hand was.

defintley a dive. I remember reading about a ring magazine artile where some karate guy tried to claim clays punch was an old advanced karate chop that was designed to knock the senses out of the opponent. LOL LMAO

Yes ingo packed alot of heat. but lets not make ingo out to be some ATG wrecking force that had a strong chance against liston. patterson twice knocked ingo out for a reason. the same patterson who couldnt last 3 rounds in 2 fights with liston. ingo was not in listons class. Machen and Patterson were nowhere near listons class.

A interesting fight would have been big cat williams vs johansson

yes which is why I rate ingo pretty highly on my all time list. but all in all, he stood a very little chance at surviving more than 3 rounds with liston, and above all he never fully proved himself vs a wide variety of the top american fighters of that era. he never proved himself vs a big skilled man who could punch.