Ingo's right hand.

You are hung up on that Cooper win, but again in 1957 just how good was Henry Cooper?

His two prior fights before Johannson, he was knocked out by some guy named Peter Bates and then he was dominated and knocked out by the average Joe Bygraves. Directly after his loss to johannson, he was deciisoned by joe Erskine.

Considering by 1959 and 1961, cooper was knocking out Erskine...I would argue cooper because a much better fighter in the years after his fight with johannson.

Cooper didn't really start to hit his stride until late 1958 going into 1959. A johannson win over Henry Cooper a few years later would have meant a lot more.


Valdes and Williams were big hitters. everyone who was around that time verifies it. Valdes nearly cleaned out all of Europe with his fists, Machen said Williams hit as hard as Liston. Williams and Valdes were purely sluggers, they won fights with power, not skills. Machen was a skilled boxer who could punch a bit but he won most fights by accumulative punching, not one punch knockouts or early blowouts. Valdes blew out the very durable hurricane Jackson in two, and joe Erskine in 1. Also Heinz Neuhaus in only 4. Williams knocked out Terrell who was very durable, and Miteff.

Ingo defeated every fighter he ever fought, however he went 1-2 a losing record against the best man he fought. And that man wasn't even the best of his era.

Liston defeated the following men who were top 10 at one point in their careers

Marshall, Summerlin 2x, Hunter, Bethea, Harris, Dejohn, Besmanoff, Williams 2x, Patterson 2x, Valdes, Machen, Foley, A Johnson, H Clark, Wepner.....that's 18 victories


Johansson defeated Patterson, Machen, Richardson, Erskine, Cooper, London, Neuhaus...

That's 18 to 7

 

"I'd add Tunney to that list"

Except Tunney didn't defeat Tommy Gavigan. He fought a draw with him.

Ingo's early retirement certainly helped him in not losing more. Quarry would be a very interesting fight.

 

You still seem hung up on if Liston is better h2h and has a deeper resume, Ingo is some sort of nothing. I am not disputing that Liston is the likely winner of a match between the two or that Liston has a deeper resume. After all, he also fought nearly twenty years to Ingo's ten.

Of Ingo's list though, Cavicchi was also top ten for some months and Ten Hoff was actually top ten for the 1951 yearly rankings. The list given over at boxrec is inaccurate. I am not going to debate this one because I found a bound copy of the 1952 Ring Magazines in a used book store decades ago and I can list the ratings for 1951 that they give in the February 1952 issue. Hein Ten Hoff was #9. So that brings it up to nine. But I wonder if Bygraves might have been in the top ten monthly at one point or another. That would bring it up to 11 fights to 18 for Liston. Or ten men to Liston's fifteen.

But to be fair, Liston's opponents, other than the shared opponents Patterson and Machen, do look a solid notch above Johansson's, ratings aside. A few are fringe contender types, but more are what I would call second-tier or, at their best, even higher, contenders (Harris, Williams, Valdes). Ingo's, except for Patterson and Machen, fall into the fringe contender class. Cooper is, as you point out, a wild card here, possibly sort of like Valdes but in reverse. Valdes was past it and Henry hadn't hit his stride yet.

I think Mendoza made an insightful point. I wonder how Liston supporters would rate Ingo if the two had fought in history and Liston beat him. Would they still put him down?

 

This entire Debate started because a poster here, chokelab, believes Johannson would beat Liston in 1959. I strongly disagree with that opinion, and I have stated my case

 

I know Rocky Marciano didn't think much of Ingo's power, in a BI article he said it was a laugh comparing it to Dempsey's, Louis', and his own.

 

A small point, but Bates beat him on cuts. I agree with your points BTW.

 

Lol Ingo was a 180 or so odd pound fighter, barely a cruiserweight for today's standards so saying he has the best right hand in the history of the heavyweight division when he isn't a heavyweight by modern standards. Wait is this the type of thread that still believes 160 to 180 pound guys like Greb, Marciano, Tunney, Langford could beat modern sized, modern skilled heavyweights? Ingo's power was good for somebody who was 180 pounds but compared to a real modern sized heavyweight it would be a like a person shooting a pea-shooter at a tank.

 

I really don't understand the obsession with bigging him up! Beat every pro fighter he faced? He only fought 28 of them and really ,how many of them were world class?Ring Rankings not withstanding. Ingo himself said in his autobiography Ten Hoff and Neuhaus never really were world class.Which leaves us 1 out of 3 with Floyd and the Machen win.

 

The difference is Liston doesn't need Ingo on his record,take 1 out of 3 with Floyd and the Machen win and what does Ingo have?

 

No Ingo was a 6' 0.5" 200pounder.

ps Who were you last time?

 

I was the guy who had sex with your mom the last time? Tons of others beat me to it though. Ingo was 6'0 and 190 or so odd pounds pretty much his whole career. So ingo was a cruiserweight by modern standards who pretty much fought other cruiserweights or less. Which has nothing to do with him being the hardest punching heavyweight. But hey weight classes don't matter right? Yet for some reason the people who govern boxing think it does. That is why you don't see 170 pound guys moving up and fighter heavyweights now days do you?

 

Did he? That’s interesting, I never knew that. I know Rocky was not so keen on Ingo. He liked Sonny.

 

No you're the guy I just reported for unacceptable remarks.

 

Thanks, should I care? Go back to crying over your boxing heroes like Marciano, Tunney, and Greb kid. Reporting me on a boxing forum doesn't bother me.

 

No more comment from me.