Ingo's right hand.

I thought I said I favor Liston.

"Ingo can't take a big punch"

He didn't have an iron jaw. That is for certain. But Ingo was only KO'd by a champion. Schmeling was KO'd in one round by Gypsy Daniels. Who would expect Schmeling to stand up to the Louis who blew out the iron-jawed Max Baer, who had taken the best Schmeling had before pounding him out?

By the way, if Ingo has a glass jaw, doesn't this devalue Patterson who after all is the only man to ever stop him. And isn't devaluing Patterson, Liston's top opponent, left-handedly devaluing Liston himself.

I really don't understand your obsession with putting down Johansson.

 

Yes, the putting down of Johansson puts down Patterson and Liston. The three are tied together.

 

No matter? No matter? You are going to forget about the fact ingo got his face mashed in in his next two fights vs Patterson?

Ingo lost twice to Floyd Patterson, this means a lot

Ingo was exposed as very limited

 

You keep trying to argue Johansson beats Liston in 1959. Do you know how ridiculous you sound?

 

Mcvea explained it perfectly in another post. Look back

 

The three aren't tied together.

Johansson went 1-2 vs Patterson

Liston went 2-0 vs Patterson


How is Liston tied together with those 2?

 

Patterson is the only man to stop Johansson because he's the only puncher Johansson ever fought. Johansson missed out on a lot of big punchers for the era...Foley Williams Moore Dejohn Valdes Holman, etc...did he not? He was knocked down and out at the final bell against London...had the fight continued the referee would have stopped the fight. London was not a puncher. Before you bring up he fought Henry Cooper, it should be noted cooper was so green in 57 he was getting his but kicked by joe bygraves.

Patterson had a 19 year career filled with big names. The ingo trilogy doesn't define his legacy. He also beat an ATG in Archie Moore, the same Moore whom Marciano fought. Also he beat bonavena, chuvalo, Jackson, Harris, Cooper, Ellis Robbery, and some say Quarry.

You should be asking chokelab why is he so obsessed with also putting down Liston and why he has this ridiculous opinion of picking a 1959 ingo over Liston?

 

this is untrue. Ingo fought Machen, Erskine, Cooper, Richardson, Cavicchi, Hoff, Neuhaus.

he did you just disregard them because they were Europeans. Machen and Patterson between them represent very sophisticated technical boxing.

ingo beat Hoff and Neuhaus who were enormous compared to Ingo. Williams and Valdes were no heavier than Sonny. Valdes was on the skids, Williams never knocked out elite men of consequence. Machen and Patterson were better than both.

Ingo beat Erskine who was a master boxer who was able to outbox pastrano for pure boxing. Machen was a masterful boxer against Sonny. Why bring up Moore and Johnson? Sonny did not fight them either.

 

Well yes I have always made a great distinction between Ingo winning the championship and being champion. Ingo was much better at becoming a champion and being one. Lots of champions are. Max Baer. Rocky Graziano. Ingo was not cut out to keep the title long. Like Sonny Liston.

 

1. You are wrong. Machen and Patterson were the only men ranked in the top 10 at the moment they fought Johansson. Get that through your skull. None of those other men were top 10.

2. I'm not disregarding them because they were European. I'm disregarding them because they either weren't good fighters or weren't in there primes when they fought Johansson. Johannson went 2-2 vs Machen and Patterson, so he didn't prove himself superior. His entire legacy is based on these 4 fights. He has nothing else Impressive on his resume. Liston has many different styles and names on his resume.

3. Hoff was way way past his prime in retirement mode, and to be honest was never good in his prime. Neuhaus was another who was clearly past his prime. Even in his prime, Neuhaus was destroyed in 4 rounds by Liston victim Nino Valdes

4. Joe Erskine a master boxer? That's news to me. He was yet another on the long list of euros who got destroyed by Liston victim Nino Valdes. Machen lost 10 out of the 12 rounds against Liston. How masterful was he? Sonny signed to fight Harold Johnson in 1956. Johnson pulled out four days prior to the fight and was replaced by Marty Marshall

 

So you're trying to argue ingos prime "ended" the moment he defeated Patterson?

 

The three defined that era together. Patterson Ingo and Sonny. They shared common opponents among the contenders of that period.

 

What is the evidence Williams or Valdes were really bigger punchers than Machen?

But you can point out that Machen never hit Ingo because he got knocked out too quick. It is a fair point, but I don't know how far it should be taken. Also, Cooper's left hook was dangerous enough to hurt a young Ali more than anyone else did, at least before Frazier.

"his resume is very thin for a champion. Amongst the thinnest."

This is true. But it should be balanced by Ingo being one of only three heavyweight champions I can think of who defeated every pro fighter he fought. The other two are Marciano and Lewis.

No one disputes that Liston has the better and much deeper resume. But how many men did he beat who were in the top five when Liston fought them? I think only Patterson, Folley, and Machen. Johansson defeated two, Machen and Patterson. How many were ever in the top five? For Liston I think six--Patterson, Folley, Machen, Harris, Williams, and Valdes. For Ingo, I think three--Patterson, Machen, and Cooper.

 

It turned out that way with Liston too according to many.

 

I'd add Tunney to that list, with the total now being four. Still a cool triva point that most would miss.

Ingo could punch, but he wasn't anything more than a competent boxer, nor was he durable. A smaller guy who had the " puncher's chance " type vs. the better in history.

I'd have a hard time picking Ingo vs. champions that succeeded him, outside of Leon Spinks.

Let's remember Ingo did not have a lot of fights and retired young at age 30. Had he fought on, he's going down and losing more often. By retiring when he did, he preserved his image. Ingo a nice guy and ambassador to boxing won his final fight groggy on his back, saved by the bell vs. Brian London in the final round.

Was Ingo better than fighters a decade later who never won a title such as Quarry, Lyle, or Shavers? I say no.

Liston would have taken him out inside of four rounds.