Is Ali the HW GOAT?

Yes just about. I would argue Louis is slightly ahead with a dominant reign in a decent HW era, but Ali did what he couldn't and triumphed in two eras of the HW landscape. No issue with Ali being the greatest HW.

 

Tyson after the prison stint was garbage, due to age, miles, regression, and especially drug addiction. Fury looked like **** against Ngannou, but he was in visibly terrible shape. He was visibly better against Usyk.

 

How many ranked fighters did Fury face post Wlad (which is about a decade ago) ? Wilder got smashed by Parker, Zhang. Fury retired right after Usyk so we can't even guage him against other top guys properly, he is wildly overrated and I stand on that. Post prison Tyson still ran Bruno and Seldon like he was SUPPOSED to

 

It's not the point. Fury was the guy who unseated Klitschko and came back and put himself right back in the mix with the Wilder victory. There is no doubt, none whatsoever, that either Joshua or Fury was the best heavy pre-Usyk, and Usyk took them head-on and beat them both twice.

 

After Fury struggled with old Ngannou, nobody Wallin and limited Wilder there is plenty of doubt. Fury never tested himself against any quality contenders post Wlad which confirms my suspicions.

 

Dude, Tyson struggled with Botha.

 

At the WORST, Usyk is a tossup for #1 cruiser (tossup between him and Holyfield). I guess I give the slight nod to Holyfield because he was actually a natural cruiser? Usyk was always a natural heavyweight, he was just cutting water to make 200. Still, Usyk’s got a very fair claim to #1.

heavyweight though? Not a chance. COULD he have been, had he just turned pro at HW, and he turned pro much earlier than he did? Maybe. If you want to see what he was capable of doing to other heavyweights at the very start of his pro career, check out his WSB fights. He fought at heavy, won all six fights, lost only one round in six fights.

but he’s out of time. If he beats Dubois, then beats Parker and Kabayel, he probably earns a top ten spot. But that’s the best he’s going to make.

still a legend though. To be a small (for era) heavy who becomes undisputed in an era of superheavies is highly impressive.

interesting question is how Usyk would have done if he’d have been born when Ali was, turned pro when Ali did. (And we have to make him born in the US or Western Europe for this to work). Same size as Ali, and Ali was not small for his era. When we saw Usyk fighting guys his own size instead of larger guys, he mauled them all. So…. Yeah. Who knows.

 

No way is Ali the HW goat. He was the best HW in a certain era. But then there are other HW's who were the best in their era.

No one can legitimately claim one era is better quality or harder to be the consensus number 1 in than any other era. Its all horse**** if anyone does.

Sure you can make your own personal opinion on it. But there is no scientific way of claiming Ali is the HW GOAT, just like no one can claim Larry Holmes or Sonny Liston is the heavyweight GOAT.

 

Ali was the best HW in two eras. Look at The Ring ratings in 1963 and 1973. Only one of the names on them is missing from Ali's resume.

That's objectively unique. Which Louis's 25 defences and 12 year reign also is, that's why most here have it between them.

For most, Ali's wins over Liston, Frazier and Foreman gives Ali the nod.

 

I do not consider Ali's win over Liston legitimate. Both fights were rigged with Liston throwing both of them. The boxing community saw Ali as the "better champion", more articulate and more able to generate interest and bets on the fights than Liston.

Frazier won the first fight and in the second fight there are serious question marks about giving Ali the nod. You could have Frazier 2-1 up in the trilogy.

That just leaves Foreman, and no one is going to **** with me and claim getting a W over someone as limited as him makes you the GOAT.

I could go fight by fight through Ali's resume and analyse 5-6 fights where you could argue he should have a loss on his resume, and at that point he has 10 or 11 losses. So would we be calling him a GOAT then?

 

Most resumes are going to be suffer if you just decide that you think two of the best wins are fixed without any proof, and that a third isn't really a win because you didn't like the reffing. And then decide that an undefated champion that would achieve the unique feat of winning his title back 20 years after losing it ain't nothing because you don't like what you see.

But that still leaves Ali with more wins against top 5 opposition than I think anyone bar Louis has against top 10. So...


And with that, bye, because this won't lead anywhere.

 

I think it's becoming a forum tradition at this point

 

Foreman obliterated Ken Norton and Joe Frazier and won an Olympic gold medal - if that's a limited fighter, you're setting an unbelievably high bar. Joe Louis beat nobody of the calibre of Foreman, nor did Lennox Lewis. Who would Ali have had to beat for you to consider him the GOAT? He literally beat every top name across 2 separate eras.

 

All heads must bow...

 

I guess Ali could have not got parkinsons, found a way to turn back the clock and beat Larry Holmes? I mean, Usyk is the same age that Ali was when he fought Holmes, and I think Usyk would be competitive with Holmes.