Is Ali the No.1 h2h Heavyweight?

you mean like you who said trolled saying larry beats every hw even though he should in his young days he had trouble with Ken and ernie no I dont have dumb opinions like that of any boxer

or do I say like some crazy trolls here that a person in joe Louis era would beat any boxer that was a big or middle name in the 70s-90s so no I dont know anything about that dumb opinions you talk of my stuff is said as fact

I have no quote saying anything that wouldnt be possible

 

He's an expert on dumb opinions.

 

The thing is McCall was passed fit to fight. He was always on the edge and more than a little nuts. He often cried just walking to the ring. He fought no different to usual. He sat there looking for the big right hand counter but it was a different Lewis by this point. There was zero reckless right hands (and barely any at all early) as he dominated McCall with the jab and wasn't afraid to get physical. McCall just had no openings to go through, no way into the bout. Then things started to get nasty for him. He was never beating Lewis again, that bird had flown not long after Steward kinked up with him.

A draw wouldn't be outrageous. The thing is two out of three judges saw it for Lewis by 1 and 2 points and the other found a draw. Totally fair result.

Yes it was a tough fight but ones mans face could not handle the wear and tear. As you say Vitali's face failed him under immense duress from Lewis's punches. Lewis won fair and square. A rematch would have been nice but it was obvious Lewis was waning both mentally and physically and got out at the perfect time IMO. At the end of the day Lewis beat him.

 

The punch that ruined it wasn't even a flush one. Vitali's prominent eyebrow and skin make him cutprone.

 

What other fights did he lose via cuts?

 

That is the point, Vitali was 6' 7" he hardly ever got hit while he leant back. People with prominent cheekbones and brows are cut-prone.

 

Ok so what you are saying is that Lewis would have cut him up on a routine basis and he would have trouble against other top shelf fighters that could get through to him good.

 

Ali was declared fit to fight Holmes. Do you really want to go this route?

He fought no different than usual? So you can bring up 5 other examples of McCall having a complete meltdown and crying in between rounds?

Come on John.

If you want to argue McCall made the mistake of assuming it'd be the same fight fishing for a right hand lead, you may argue that. But to suggest he was the same old McCall and there was no serious mental health issues going on?

You're also not addressing what I said that Lewis did not "defeat" him. there was no knockout or decision, his opponent fell apart mentally in a corner.

Winning by 1 point through 1 judge and a draw with another indicates that the fight wasn't very convincing either way.

To quote Mike Tyson: "I don't get the concept of split decisions in boxing. It's a fight. You're only one point better than me?".

This isn't an absurd stance to take and I've made this case before. Vitali should have had better defense, the cut wasn't from a headbutt or elbow.

 

It's well publicised there were multiple gremlins in Ali's tests. Were there such gremlins in McCalls? McCall battled drugs and sex at very regular intervals throughout much of his career. He was in rehab more than once and actually had fights in between stints like he did against Lewis. He was living on the edge and could have crossed it at various points. If he was up against a less formidable opponent and having some success who knows what might have happened? It's a fine line. Benton said there was no drugs in camp and he acted similar to usual. Benton isn't the sort of gent that would have supported the bout if he didn't think him fit to fight. He was examined by a psychiatrist the day after the bout and actually declared fine.

Crying between rounds has nothing to do with fighting. The first two rounds were business as usual for McCall and he looked himself in the ring. He took some heavy blows in round 3 and things spiraled downhill fast. For sure he had some sort of breakdown. Things had begun to look very grim for him in the ring by the point he started to capitulate.

McCall often cried at fights, sometimes coming to the ring sometimes afterward. He was living on the edge and borderline nuts at various times.

The mental health issues arose as the bout went on as described above.

His opponent basically quit. It's down as a TKO just as Leonard - Duran II is. Liston - Ali. It needs no explanation.

Yes it was close but Lewis got the official decision. The majority of cards i have seen favor Lewis. There are heaps of close cards for the likes of Holmes, Ali and bulk others over the years but unless one considers it blatantly terrible not many run around refusing to accept things.

Well TKO6 i believe is the catch cry for many on that one. The fight certainly caused a lot of hilarious comments and debates (and embarrassments) over the years that's for sure. For a long while it was the gift that just kept on giving.

 

The fact he was a ticking time bomb throughout much of his career has no bearing on what actually transpired. Being on edge and actually falling over the edge during a fight are two different things. I think you are severely downplaying mental health in here.

Its kind of like someone whose a functional alcoholic and someone who straight up can't even go to work or take care of basic hygiene because they are completely wasted practically every day. McCall's brain during the fight with Lewis was wasted if you will. You're acting like he was some sort of undefeated confident boxer who just unraveled as soon as things stopped going his way and Lewis presented too much of a challenge. He was used to losing. We're talking about a guy with double digit losses.

Crying between rounds tells me the other guy is obviously not mentally fit to fight. Never said it should affect how the rounds are scored.

If you admit he has some sort of break down what is this debate even about? You cannot say you beat the best version of a fighter if they're having a breakdown, it's in the definition. That was my point. Not only was McCall in horrible shape mentally, Lewis didn't knock him out or win a decision. He won by default because his opponent simply fell apart. At no point was I suggesting Lewis shouldn't have been declared the winner or that it was his fault. I'm talking about semantics and the truest definition of the word "defeat".

Again I'm not singling out Lewis. I'm well aware other champions had razor thin verdicts that could have gone the other way (Ali vs Norton, holmes vs Witherspoon, etc). My issue was with the statement "Lewis beat every opponent he faced" because that implies all his victories were clear and left no stone unturned and that isn't the case at all.

 

He was judged OK by a psychiatrist the very next day which tho surprising is interesting. Did he fall over the edge or was he pushed? If McCalls right hand bomb lands and stops (or helps toward a stoppage) Lewis early in round 3 we wouldn't even having this conversation. You could see his frustration come forth in round 3 as he simply couldn't make an impression on a Lewis who was doing everything perfectly. It's pure conjecture that against a much lesser fighter it wouldn't have ended up business as usual.

I'm not "acting" like anything. I'm simply exploring avenues and not automatically accepting everything you are preaching.

I was never talking about how rounds are scored. I was talking about how he was fighting (for two and a bit rounds). Big difference.

McCall cried coming to the ring on multiple occasions? Was he mentally fit to fight? He cried during bouts. Was he mentally fit to be fighting?

My point is that this was a meltdown waiting to happen. Because it happened when he fought Lewis doesn't 100% guarantee he wasn't that same meltdown waiting to happen on other nights particularly given the crying in other bouts which you have honed in on above.

Truth be told the guy probably shouldn't have been in the ring on multiple other nights either.

I've explained my thoughts and feelings quite clearly above. Lewis didn't have to knock him out or win a decision.

It's obvious McCall wasn't going to win the rematch even from what we saw. When he was trying to fight he had nothing against a Lewis who shelved the right hand early and pumped him with the jab. When the odd big punch came he was in a position to see it as the recklessness was gone. McCall just wasn't that good and that's on Lewis for the first fight. He was a flawed overconfident fighter who was an accident waiting to happen. Like Lewis - Schmeling it was the best thing that could have happened to him. As it was he should have been allowed to go out on his shield. Regardless for me he did indeed beat every man he ever faced. You are of course entitled to your own opinion.

 

I'm not preaching anything. It's evident this was not the same old McCall. I don't see how you can possibly disagree and then admit he had a complete meltdown during the fight.

If Louis and Schmeling had their rematch and Schmeling was crying, not defending himself, freaking out, and retired in his corner I would not say Louis got his revenge or that he "defeated" his opponent. I would say he won by default but I wouldn't blame Louis either. It's not convincing whatsoever.

If you think Lewis would have won anyways, I actually agree that's the most likely possibility. But to suggest it was the same old McCall and Lewis "defeated" him is a bizarre claim to make. This win holds less weight than a sparring Match or an exhibition. You even admitted McCall probably shouldn't have been in the ring that night so I'm really confused what you're disagreeing with here.

Let me clarify I do not think it should have been called a no contest, Lewis' record should definitely reflect a win on technicality. But I 100% disagree with the idea he defeated McCall when the opponent in question was having a meltdown and not even defending himself for half the fight due to mental health issues. Much has been written on McCall's issues before during and after the fight so I am also surprised you're just waving everything off because one doctor supposedly said he was fine...which is shocking.

 

It was a usual looking McCall for 2 and a bit rounds. The meltdown came later.

That comparison isn't remotely palatable.

Schmeling wasn't known for crying before and during fights previously.
Schmeling wasn't known to have substantial drug problems.
Schmeling wasn't known for being in and out of rehab.

Do i think McCall should have been in the ring given the benefit of hindsight? No he shouldn't have been. Given he'd battled drugs since 13yo and often cried during ringwalks he probably shouldn't have been in the ring near as much as he was. They were actually happy with his camp and men as experienced as Benton thought him ready to roll. They had him under strict control and he had to pass a drug test at a point before the fight. Quite a few people were caught off guard.

I've been quite clear it looked like the same old McCall in the early going and you've inserted "defeated" with "same old McCall" misleadingly. You're fabricating points i didn't make.

Lewis's record reflects a TKO.

To say i am "waving everything off because one doctor supposedly said he was fine" and then labeling it "shocking" is quite simply pure sensationalism and completely untrue to put it kindly.

I will depart the discussion with this - McCall cried walking to the ring for the first Lewis fight. The one where he TKO'd Lewis.

 

Frazier beats any Ali you sausage.

 

What are you doing here George?