Is Ali the No.1 h2h Heavyweight?

Too many, too many dubious fights in Ali's career. Cooper (the bell and the glove), Liston I and II (combined?), Frazier II (clinch, dirty play), Young (robbery), Norton III (robbery), Shavers (very uncertain), Norton II (very uncertain), Foreman ( victory under special circumstances) ... He can't be the greatest.

 

Ali was very beatable. I'd bet big money on Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Fury, the Klitschkos - all beating him.
And it will be 50:50 against guys like Holmes, Bowe, Spinks, Byrd and probably more I can't think of right now

 

I do, early 70s Ali hit harder and could take more punishment.
The main reason a lot see 60s Ali as better or unbeatable was due to the way he beat his opponents, yet most don't realize he fought way easier opposition (except Liston and Patterson - who were not at their best), that's why he seemed much more dominant.

 

What a treasure you are. We'd all still be lost at sea without your mesmerizing insights. Such salvation.

 

I suggest you take your medication.

 

I suggest you stop looking at Ali through rose tinted glasses.

 

50/50 against Bowe, Spinks, and Byrd ? Are you joking ?

You guys really love discrediting Ali lmao Spinks ? do you also think over the hill Larry Holmes beats prime Ali too ? Because he got robbed against spinks in the second fight. And Bowe had trouble with a total bootleg Ali in Larry Donald lol. Byrd ? See past it Ali handle Young.
Question, which Ali are you referring too ? The Ali from the mid-late 70s ? Or the legitimate lightning quick prime Ali from the 60s before he was banned from Boxing ? I guarantee you'll say Ali didn't decline at all due to his long layoff from boxing and each war with Frazier but eat up the excuse that Mike Tyson declined when he was in prison and lost kevin rooney

 

Very poor example.

Ali in the 60s looked good against so-so opposition.

Lost the first one though. Put 200 lbs Spinks in the 60s and he would do reasonably well against Ali.
The Jinx is definitely better than Sonny Banks and Doug Jones.

 

I think 1992 Bowe would have been a good (if losing) matchup against any Ali. But Spinks and Byrd....sometimes I think that man just likes to write inflammatory things just to get people's attention.

I've never met any boxing person, fan, scribe, or anyone who would pick Spinks or Byrd to beat Ali 1964-1974. It's literally hilarious to consider.

I have way more respect for White Bomber's opinions than moneytheman's...but I'll let that land for a moment.

 

Give an explanation then instead of just saying "poor example" lol seems like you can't debate

That could also be said for Mike Tyson, he looks better against weaker opposition from the 80s, then lost more in the 90s because the 90s was stacked full of good fighters. The same could also be said for Klitschko, he dominated a weaker era than the 90s which is why he did so poorly against leftovers from the 90s. The same could also be said for prime Holmes, he was pushed to the limit against a old, past it Ken Norton, but after that he dominated the division, because the 80s was a weaker era than the 70s.
Logic like that can easily be flipped against you

Holmes was past it so the argument doesn't that hold much weight. Unless you just want to purposefully be ignorant i doubt you actually think a past it Holmes was better than a prime Ali, and he got robbed in the second fight too so the argument holds even less weight. Spinks would give Ali trouble but there's nothing suggesting it would be a 50/50 fight.

 

I'm wondering if Bumnard and White are the same person.

Today's my birthday, and the outrageous hilarity of Spinks beating a 60s Ali is already one of my favorite gifts. Thanks for cheering up my morning, guys (or guy).

 

Tyson's "weak" opposition is still stronger than 60s "prime" Ali's.

Lol, you don't know much about the Young bout do you? Young was the better man that night. Young ducked through the ropes at times for which he should have been disqualified, but he outboxed Ali nonetheless.
You picked an example where Ali got outboxed.

So your argument for 60s Ali's being H2H greatest is that others had good runs against weak opposition too?

Past it Holmes would be a handful for 60s Ali.

LOL. Ali fought a bunch of bloated LHWs and small cruisers. Spinks with Shilstone's help would be better than the likes of Doug Jones and Patterson.

 

I'd favor Sonny Liston to beat all of Tysons 80s opposition. How you don't, i have no clue. Ali was past it because it's clear he was less mobile, wasn't quite as quick handed and had inferior head movement in the 70s in comparison to when he fought in the late 60s. I back up my claims with observable evidence. You say Ali's opposition was inferior in the 60s which is why he looked better, so how is it that Ali even against subpar weak opposition in the 70s looked inferior to his pre layoff self.

Eh it was hard to score but i had it a draw, this was an out of shape, slower, shopworn mid 70s Ali fighting an arguably better tactician than Chris Byrd, that's the point.

Quote when i said Ali was H2H the greatest, im waiting lol ridiculous argument. Ive actually gone on record claiming that Lewis was H2H the greatest. Got any other nonsense to say ?

Yeah just like an old, past it Ken Norton was a handful for prime Larry Holmes, and Holmes arguably lost that fight. the same Norton that was swapping rounds in his prime against a past it Ali. Hmm, i think based off logic I'd say prime Ali is at the very least as good if not better than prime Holmes. So past it Holmes being a handful for prime Ali ? I think not

LOL. Sonny Liston, Cleavland Williams and Ernie Terell were also better than Doug Jones and Patterson and they didn't beat Ali, saying they were "better" isn't a good argument to suggest it would be a 50/50 fight, because that's the entire argument for this section. I disagree that Spinks vs Ali is a 50/50 fight and you replied to me with nonsense. So please explain Bumnard Hopkins how Spinks vs Prime Muhammad Ali is a 50/50 fight. I've already schooled you in this thread once and I'll do it again. I'll be waiting.

 

60s Ali was facing fading elite heavies anyway. 70s Ali was facing prime fighters.

 

This was a really good post and I agree with a lot of it. Except...I wonder if Norton really was past it? He'd just beaten Jimmy Young (whom firmly defeated Foreman), and looked great against a smoking Larry Holmes.

I think the Holmes fight marks where Ken started losing it...he said later that after that (losing the crown by one point) he just wasn't anywhere near as motivated anymore.

I am starting to think Ken's peak might have been 1973 to mid-1978. I think most fighters have around a 5 year peak.. Holmes went from Shavers I to Cobb, for instance.