Is Ali the No.1 h2h Heavyweight?

Holmes wasn't that good?

Any point you were trying to make has just gone out the window.

 

No, no, no. Almost being knocked silly by Henry Cooper is indicative. Period.

At this point I am trying to argue sense against 2-3 people who have decided on a narrative among themselves. It is a waste of time, and I have better things to do.

Peace.

 

His best wins were close, dodgy affairs over pseudo-great Norton, and hot-and-cold Witherspoon. Meanwhile, he ducked challenges, and bragged about it.

Most overrated champion.

 

I'd say it's either him, Tyson or Lewis

 

Who do you have in your top 10 at HW?

 

Changes up, I would say...

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Lewis
Charles
Foreman
Johnson
Frazier
Holyfield (dropped a few sports for "Evan Field")
Tyson

Tunney,...Harry Wills...Liston, WladKlit and Holmes are all right there, but based on Holme's low quality of wins and his ducking and bragging, I just can't put him in there over the above.

 

Untested? No offense but that's hilarious. Sonny Liston is in pretty much everybody's top 12 ATGs (most scribes have him in the top 10) and Ali stopped him twice. He also slapped the **** out of every contender put in front of him.

Who has ANYone in this 21st century beaten that was the caliber of a Sonny Liston, much less Ali?

Btw, if anyone needs help, the answer is a big no one.

 

I'm curious too. Here's mine:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. Lewis
7. Marciano
8. Frazier
9. Tyson
10. Wlad
11. Liston
12. Dempsey
13. Johnson
14. Vitali
15. Bowe
16. Charles
17. Tunney
18. Walcott
19. Fitzsimmons
20. Norton

 

Jack Johnson and Ezzard Charles above Holmes...?

Holmes doesn't have many dominant signature wins, but he was much more consistent than both of them. 20 title defenses and he came back as a 40 year old man to school a prime Mercer. In fact he consistently beat younger men and made this observation when people compared him to Rocky who was constantly beating on older shopworn guys.

Who did Charles and Johnson beat that convinces you they were better than Holmes? What signature wins place them so much higher than Holmes? It certainly can't be because of their title reigns which were much shorter and lacked quality.

Equally puzzling that either of them are above Holyfield and Tyson.

 

Many people have Norton in the top 20-30. Ali beat 4 people on your top 20 list yet according to some people somehow he isn't #1. No one else can claim that.

As for Holmes I haven't seen a single person with an ounce of boxing knowledge who has him outside the top 10. MANY have him in the top 5! Certainly not below Charles and Johnson.

 

There was a thread, a couple of years ago or so, which asked a question along the lines of:
'Which other Heavyweights could have gone 5-1-0 against Liston, Frazier & Foreman?'
(Was that thread you as well, @BlackCloud ?)

I think the question of that thread, helps with answering the question of this thread.

It is remarkable to think that Ali achieved these results over a period of 11 years, spanning his exile. I can't reasonably consider predicting any other Heavyweight to achieve the same.

I think Louis and Lewis have a chance, but I find it to be against the odds. And, I can't see Holmes or Tyson repeating this feat, either.

The above scenario notwithstanding, Ali's record makes a demonstrable, 'best' case for him being the Number-1, Head-to-Head Heavyweight.

 

Uh, Johnson beat murderer's row.

Charles beat Louis, Walcott, Moore, Maxim, Bivins, Lesnevich, and Elmer Ray.

Holmes was more consistent because he more consistently fought bums. Charles has more wins than Holmes has fights.

Marciano beat older, "shopworn" guys who were champions or #1 contenders, with the exception of Louis who was #6, or something like that. I like that over dodgy, either-way decisions over Holmes and Witherspoon. As long as we are splitting hairs about wins, let us not forget that Holmes; best were controversial.

 

Nominally. In reality? I feel Usyk will prove to be.

 

Johnson fought the murderers row on the way up and then proceeded to keep the title to himself and not give his fellow blacks a shot.

Charles beat an old Louis and went 2-2 with Walcott getting brutally stopped in their last bout. Moore and Maxim were light heavies. Elmer Ray was basically the Shavers of that era.

You haven't really given me one performance or win from Charles or Johnson that emphatically puts them above Holmes fight of the year with Norton, breaking down murderous sluggers like Cooney and shavers, or beating mercer as a 40 year old man.

Yes the Witherspoon and Williams fights were close. They were also prime athletic skilled modern sized heavies, unlike the 190 pound flat footed barroom brawlers Johnson, Marciano, and Charles feasted on. Winning a close decision is not as bad as Charles and Johnson having double digit losses (including multiple brutal stoppage losses). Witherspoon went on to become a 2x champ. He also has wins over Berbick, Weaver, Mercer, and Smith who would go on to become champions along with Leon who was an ex champion.

So that's a 2x champ, 6 1x champs, and 2 of the hardest hitters of all time. That certainly doesn't look like the resume of a guy who consistently fought bums.

Witherspoon alone would be 50/50 with Charles and Johnson h2h. Mercer might have walked right through their shots and broken them down. Several of Holmes' opponents could have matched Johnson, Marciano, or Charles' record.

 

Mcvey has presented evidence that he wanted to fight some of them, which is why I have moved him up. regardless, he beat better guys than Holmes.

Charles can go 2-2 with Walcott. Great fighters beat each other. It happens. Its not like Holmes going 0-2 against Spinks.

Holmes "fight of the year" against Norton was against a guy who was only very arguably great.

Size does not count...we all know that Holmes and some of his opponents were bigger than Marciano or Charles. That is not what we are talking about when we discuss "greatness." We are talking about accomplishments in their eras.

Shaver and Cooney weren't that good. Hard hitting, but not much else.

Head to head is not part of greatness. It isn't what we are talking about. If it ws, then yes, guys like Maricano, Charles, and Joe Louis would lose to many modern heavyweights. It isn't what we are talking about.