Is Ali the No.1 h2h Heavyweight?

Are you trolling still? Lol I can’t. Either phenomenal troll job or you missed a lot of Ali fights. In the later stages of his career he took a lot of shots from a lot of heavy hitters. Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Frazier, Bonavena to name a few. And before that Liston, Patterson, Williams, Cooper. These men could bang. The likes of Liston, Foreman, Lyle, shavers prob hit harder then Bowe. Shavers and Lyle obviously lacked Bowes skills and size.
Had you said say Vitali and Tua had a better chin then Ali I’d say possibly. Even then both didn’t face a tenth of the competition Ali did. But Tyson and Holy? Cmon way off.

 

lol at Marciano being higher than Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, and Wlad.

 

Tyson and Foreman have a case...Wlad and Holmes? Lmao cmon we get it you hate Marciano. So much so you keep bringing him up in threads that aren’t about him. Get over it he was a great champion and fighter.

 

I've seen Ali's fights.

The Bonavena and Frazier fights weren't at the latter stages of his career, as you claim.
And he didn't get hit clean by all those men.
Foreman didn't land a single power punch to Ali's head. He either missed completely, or hit Ali's hands or just grazed Ali. He pounded Ali' body, not his chin.
Lyle also never hit Ali with any clean power punches.
I've never seen Frazier as a big puncher. He wasn't powder puff, but not that big of a hitter either.
Liston also didn't hit him with any of his power punches. He was too old, unprepared and Ali made him miss a lot.
Patterson was never a big puncher.
Williams was completely shot when he fought Ali and didn't even land a decent jab, let alone a power punch.

Ali was hit clean with hard punches by Cooper, Frazier and Shavers.
Cooper and Frazier hit his jaw clean and dropped him with one punch.
Shavers hit his cheeckbone, that's why Ali didn't drop. But Shavers still had Ali hurt, but was too stupid and not skilled enough to take advantage.

Now, if a cruiserweight like Cooper could send him to dream world, imagine what a similar punch from the likes of Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis or W. Klitschko would have done to him.

If Ali would have been hit by punch that Rahman catched Lewis with, he'd have the same faith as Lewis.
If he was hit by Douglas's 4-5 punch combo after being pounded on all night, he'd have the same faith as Tyson.
etc

 

Both are by far more well rounded, more skilled, BIGGER, and better suited to fight the modern day behemoths. And I don't even particularly like Wlad.

No I do not hate Marciano (on the contrary, he was one of the most exciting fighters I've ever seen)I hate this forum's idea of Marciano.

If I hated Marciano, I would've included Frazier (my favorite fighter) in my above list who it would be laughable to rank below Marciano.

Have you forgotten that YOU were the one to bring up Marciano in this thread?

Yes, but that's all he was. He's not some top 5 H2H monster like you and others make him out to be.

 

You brought him up by singling him out. I named nine other fighters in my h2h. This is an Ali thread. There are 7000 Marciano threads. You could have fooled my on being a fan. Only ever see negative from you and and a few other disgruntled Marciano haters. If you feel Louis should be in top ten it shouldn’t be unreasonable to put Marciano. Considering he would prob beat any version of Louis. If the rest of my list is rather sane you shouldn’t find Marciano insane to be there. Man beat three top ten p4p greats. Can’t really say the same of anyone on the h2h list. If you’d like to argue Marciano pick a thread I’ll stick to Ali here after this.

 

Sigh
Ali v Liston 1
Liston connected 31.2 percent of the time and landed 103/330 total punches. He was hit 103 times by Liston 63 of which were power shots

Ali v Foreman
Foreman landed 29.9 percent of his shots and landed 138/461 total punches 109 of which were power shots. Looks like he took plenty there.

Ali v Lyle
Lyle landed 23.3 percent of his shots a total of 137 punches out of 587. 102 of which were power shots. Once again took plenty of punishment.

no one in their right minds considers post war ban Ali as the better version and I’d argue strongly against that.

 

Those stats are meaningless. They are not proper punches, even the ones that hit the guard are counted.
None of those are the types of punches I talk about.

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I personally think Holmes is higher than Marciano...I'm surprised you don't.

 

Sometimes he had to finish his opponents early but he preferred to handle them. However hes in the top five ever imo

 

I’m not huge on Holmes. But I can see people putting him higher. I just don’t see it between best wins and h2h I think Rocky is better. But I respect your opinion.

 

I have him #6, he barely missed the top 5 to Foreman.

 

Hard to say, but Wlad and probably Fury are the ones I see as really difficult for him. Maybe should add Vitaly to that list, but the way that Byrd actually had a measure of success walking him down makes me hesitate. Ali of course is hardly known for that ability, but neither is Byrd.

I can't help but rate Tyson very highly h2h and have a problem making anyone a favorite over him, except, of course, Holy. And the fact that Holy showed himself to be his daddy should make me hesitate to rate Tyson so highly, but I just can't help myself. Lewis and Holy looks very scary h2h as well, but Holy also came off second to a guy shared an era with and Lewis could also look quite vulnerable.

Wlad is even more difficult. He got absolutely taken apart by Sanders and looked shaky against Brewster (not many would walk thorugh those punches, though) so on that evidence you'd give many punchers a good chance against him, but then we have the peak part of his career where no one could touch him. So the question is - how much was that down to improvement and how much to that era being really poor? An old Povetkin's relative success in today's scene would perhaps point to the former.

Vitaly, also. He never was really beat-up and was in most cases frightingly dominant, even past his prime, but his opposition wasn't much really. A poorly prepared Byrd was fairly succesful with his pressure, seeing how that wasn't his game at all.

Ali is a reasonable choice because he only lost past his prime and beat everyone over 15 or so years, including some real monsters. It will always be hard to bet against someone like that I suppose. But I would if the opponent was a prime Wlad, but he showed that he could be succesful against most styles. Brutal 6'6 punchers with great range control wasn't a reality in his day, though.

 

Haven't you learned from ESB? All threads are Marciano threads in waiting.

 

I know this is not popular but I think Ali's style was pretty ugly and boring to watch .. I get all of it but the dancing, excess energy, head moving , the whole bit is simply not exciting at all to me .. his personality and charisma , exceptional as was his courage and chin but man for the most part, like Floyd, he bored me .. I was watching him against Terrell again the other night and was bored to tears ..