Is Ali's 1st reign an underrated cleaning out of a division?

Wanderer,

He had to fight someone.

Not sure Henry Cooper deserved a 'rematch', though the bout with Cassius Clay in
1963 was 'controverial'.

The only fights that were a 'so-called requirement', was the bout with Floyd Patterson
in November 1965.

Floyd did defeat, a clumsy over-blown Light-Heavyweight Italian - Santo Amonti,
then Eddie Machen and then George Chuvalo, who both were Top 10 fighters.

Even though Floyd was injured at the time of their bout, it still had to go through.

The fight with Sonny Liston, was only required, as per orders from 'above'.

What people forget, is that with the new 'marginal rate tax laws' insituted in
November 1964, boxers could now fight more often and keep a larger percentage
of their fight purse in 1965 not like 1964 and earlier.

Believe me, if the Louisville Group (William Faversham) could have gotten Ingemar
Johannson to unretire and fight Cassius Clay in 1966, they would have fought and
'broken the bank', whether INGO was ranked or not.

 

I think that if Ali had stayed retired after he was stripped of the title, he would have comanded a significant rating.

 

I think it's quite comparable to Tyson's reign up to the Douglas fight. He cleaned out an era of fighters that in several cases had seen their best days, but did so comprehensibly.

Don't think his reign is generally underrated, just by some who don't like Ali much overall.

 

If we had to rate those 'defenses' on an A thru D mark,

I don't think you can use the busy activity as a gage.

Even the George Chuvalo bout wasn't called a Championship, it was
promoted as a 'Heavyweight Showdown'.

IMO, I would mark the reign as a B-.

No fault on Cassius, as he did fight well against everyone on the opposite
side of the ring.

 

Muhammad Ali had a legendary first reign, its a very large part of why he is considered the best ever HW, his 70s reign vs some of the strongest competition in history helps seal he deal but lets be real, Ali in the 64-67 time frame was as good as it gets for HWs.

 

Bill B,

I think Cassius left of few things on the shelf before cleaning out the closet.

Amos Johnson, Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln, Thad Spencer, Floyd Patterson II,
Oscar Bonavena, Doug Jones II.

They were all as capable as George Chuvalo, Brian London, Henry Cooper, Karl Mildenberger and Cleveland Williams.

Zora Folley was deserving of a Title Shot, though it was at least 3-years too late,
which was not Cassius Clay's fault.

 

Pepe, you should bump that one thread...you know the one. :hey

 

Who underrates it, really?

 

I also commented on that on a previous thread

People may not agree but i believe Tyson was much better at his prime than Ali. Their opposition was similar, but i think Tyson beat his in better fashion AND despite having the disadvantage in size.

Tyson at his best was more better and complete than Ali at his best, However its what Ali did post exile and what Tyson didnt do post prison which seperates the 2.

(I know im going to get slated for this)

 

The one big thing that differentiate them is that Tyson lost his title by getting beaten from pillar to post, while Ali went into exile an undefeated champion. Tyson also didn't beat anyone as formidable as Liston.

That swings it in Ali's favour imo.

 

Yeah, thats the one difference is that Tyson had already began decline before prison whereas Ali was taken slap bang straight out of his prime

Tyson did beat Holmes, who you could argue was just as a good a win as Liston, and he did give Holyfield a tough fight, lost a decision to Mcall and schooled Ray Mercer (who gave Lewis/Holyfield tough fights).

Im not going to argue with anyone who says Liston is a better win than Holmes

 

The division was good, but not great in the late 60's. Only Ali and Frazier were truly elite. All of the other fighters were B-level fighters. He beat a lot of very good fighters, though, so no one can complain about competition. There weren't many fighters he missed on fighting, and he fought the best competiition out there.

 

Not really,,,,,,,,,

Cassius Clay claimed that Hnery Coope desrebed a Title Shot, because he floored
him, but still went on to get 'butchered'.

Yet Amos Johnson, who defeated Cassius Clay in 1959 (amateurs), defeated
Henry Copper in the United Kigndom by a one-sided battering, and had floored
George Chuvalo in a sparring session, was conveniently avoided in 1966.

'Atom Amos' and his left-handed stance, would have taken Cassius into 'deep waters'.

 

Beating someone in the amateurs automatically guarantees you a victory in the pros, just ask guys like Ruddock, Tillman etc