Is Ali's size a coincidence?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by andrewa1, Apr 20, 2018.


Is Ali's success being a big HW an H2H coincidence?

  1. Yes: he would beat any hw no matter their size and skill

    13 vote(s)
    54.2%

  2. No: he never beat top shws in his era and wouldn't beat the best modern shws now

    11 vote(s)
    45.8%
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  1. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Hes generally (absurdly) regarded as the h2h best on these forums. So, that would mean physical evidence, i.e. his physical contemporary superiority, is a coincidence.

    He never beat a clear top 5 HW who was bigger, i.e both taller and heavier, than him. Hey, neither did Wlad. But personally, I think both Wlad and Ali's success had alot to do with being bigger than most of their top piers. The first clear top 5 HW Wlad faced who was also clearly bigger than him, Wlad lost. Ali never faced such an opponent.

    So, do you think this is a coincidence? That Ali would routinely beat much bigger, top notch hw's? Even though he has absolutely no track record of doing so? Even though Wlad and other modern hws get a **** ton of flack for fighting (and beating) accomplished hws of comparable size to Ali?

    For the record, there has never been a truly dominant HW champ who has been neither bigger (taller and heavier) than average, and heavier hitting than his peers. Ali, if transported to the modern era and successful in that endevour, would be the first.
     
    andrewa1, Apr 20, 2018
    andrewa1, Apr 20, 2018
    #1
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  2. Darxide

    Darxide Active Member Full Member

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    This is a confusing post, you are talking about Ali.. but do you also mean when he fought as Cassius Clay? Time he was Ali he was already past his best. I am just baffled by your fixation with size here.. Cassius Clay rose to the top not because of his size (watch his fights.. since when did he used size advantage?) he rose to the top on his skill, movement, command of the ring. In fact his size if anything worked against his style. He was faster and had better movement than much shorter lithe opponents.

    Size a world champion does not make. And you have picked literally the worst example you could have.. in Cassius Clay, you have defeated your own argument right from the start.

    Also I can't pick from two ridiculous questions.
     
    Darxide, Apr 20, 2018
    Darxide, Apr 20, 2018
    #2
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  3. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Exactly, he had better movement than smaller opponents. Hence a huge advantage. How is it hard to understand that size and speed confers a huge advantage? He never ****ing faced a clear top 5 HW who was substantially both taller and heavier. Is that really a very confusing question?

    Talent pool is much bigger now. It's a worldwide sport and we see top level giants fighting.
     
    andrewa1, Apr 20, 2018
    andrewa1, Apr 20, 2018
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  4. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I have never heard Ali described as past his best by the time he changed his name.
    You do realize that did not happen during or after his exile, but the day after he won the championship from Liston?
    Most everyone gets better after that, & Ali peaked 2-3 years later in '66-'67.
     
    Entaowed, Apr 20, 2018
    Entaowed, Apr 20, 2018
    #4
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  5. dealt_with

    dealt_with Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Ali was truly nothing special. He’d lose to a prime David Haye. That’s if he wasn’t a career cruiserweight. He’d be dwarfed by Usyk and Gassiev. He’d be an inferior orthodox version of Usyk. But we wear rose coloured glasses and talk about the good old days.
     
    dealt_with, Apr 20, 2018
    dealt_with, Apr 20, 2018
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  6. Lazar

    Lazar Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ali’s hand size?
     
    Lazar, Apr 20, 2018
    Lazar, Apr 20, 2018
    #6
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  7. Pimp C

    Pimp C Too Much Motion Full Member

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    :facepalm:
     
    Pimp C, Apr 20, 2018
    Pimp C, Apr 20, 2018
    #7
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  8. Gil Gonzalez

    Gil Gonzalez Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Mods, please ban this idiot and move this thread to the Brittard section.
     
    Gil Gonzalez, Apr 20, 2018
    Gil Gonzalez, Apr 20, 2018
    #8
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  9. dealt_with

    dealt_with Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    It’s true though..
     
    dealt_with, Apr 20, 2018
    dealt_with, Apr 20, 2018
    #9
  10. Jackomano

    Jackomano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's funny that you leave out Wlad being 39 years old and shot going into the Fury fight.

    Also, in the heavyweight division the best will be the best regardless of size. Wlad at his best, which I consider 2005-2012 would've creamed any top 5 heavyweights his size or bigger Vitali included.

    Top 10 heavyweights 2011
    Wladimir Klitschko, Champion

    1. Vitali Klitschko 6'7" 245 lbs
    2. Alexander Povetkin
    3. Tomasz Adamek
    4. Eddie Chambers
    5. Alexander Dimitrenko 6'7" 250 lbs
    6. Robert Helenius 6'6" 240 lbs
    7. Denis Boytsov
    8. Ruslan Chagaev
    9. Chris Arreola
    10. Kubrat Pulev

    I consider 1967-1974 Ali's best years. During that time none of the top heavyweights 6'4" and over would beat him.

    Top 10 heavyweights 1974
    Muhammad Ali, Champion

    1. George Foreman
    2. Joe Frazier
    3. Ron Lyle
    4. Oscar Bonavena
    5. Joe Bugner 6'4" 230 lbs
    6. Ken Norton
    7. Jerry Quarry
    8. Chuck Wepner 6'5" 225 lbs
    9. Henry Clark
    10. Larry Middleton
     
    Jackomano, Apr 20, 2018
    Jackomano, Apr 20, 2018
    #10
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  11. kirk

    kirk l l l Staff Member

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    Im certainly no boxing historian, but I think if you look at any of the standout fighters of any heavyweight era (Liston, Ali, Foreman, Lewis, Wlad, ect) and actually sat down and compared their size to their average opponent, you would see that almost every great heavyweight usually enjoyed a size advantage, and I would bet this includes Ali.


    Wlad himself beat plenty of fighters that were his size and larger. That he lost to probably the two best super heavies he faced is noted, but it must be taken into account he was 39 and 40 years old and one fight away from retirement in these bouts.

    So did size play a role? imo, sure. Were they also exceptional for their size? Absolutely. Thats what makes them great.
     
    kirk, Apr 20, 2018
    kirk, Apr 20, 2018
    #11
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  12. Jackomano

    Jackomano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This. I like David Haye, but on his best day he's no Ali. Haye even in his prime had very questionable stamina in the later rounds and his resume is too thin at heavyweight. Besides Valuev and Chisora he has no other good wins.
     
    Jackomano, Apr 20, 2018
    Jackomano, Apr 20, 2018
    #12
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  13. Brighton bomber

    Brighton bomber Loyal Member Full Member

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    Ali also beat Ernie Terrel who was taller, heavier and ranked number 1 by Ring Magazine in 67. So the idea Ali didn't beat bigger top ranked heavies has been thoroughly disproved along with jackomano's excellent post.

    While clearly superior size is an advantage more often than not, it isn't always the deciding factor on who wins especially if the smaller fighter is exceptional. You have guys like Holyfield, Tyson, Frazier, Marciano who were often outmatched in size yet they became great champions.
     
    Brighton bomber, Apr 20, 2018
    Brighton bomber, Apr 20, 2018
    #13
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  14. Farmboxer

    Farmboxer VIP Member Full Member

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    Ali in his prime would be hard to beat..................
     
    Farmboxer, Apr 21, 2018
    Farmboxer, Apr 21, 2018
    #14
  15. OvidsExile

    OvidsExile At a minimum, a huckleberry over your persimmon. Full Member

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    Just gonna say, Povetkin is smaller than Ali. Anyone who thinks a 6'3" guy can't be the best in the world, Povetkin has been top 2 or 3 for a decade beating up larger men.

    Andrew1 is fixing his goalposts so narrowly that it would be simpler for a camel to pass through a needles eye. Ali beat half a dozen guys who if they fought today would be superheavyweights. Three or four of them were actually pretty good and one was a hall of famer. He knows they were top 10 so he's quibbling that they weren't top 5. If you find him a top five he'll be like "Yeah, but they weren't top 3." Give me a break.

    Ali beat superheavyweights. He beat good ones. He'd probably whip the **** out of Wilder and Joshua. Better speed, better chin, better stamina. Get over it.

    Also, gotta point out looking at those 2011 heavyweight rankings from post 10 above, six of the top ten guys are smaller than Ali. Usually, superheavies stink and aren't as good as the smaller guys. 2-4 Povetkin, Adamek, and Chambers 7-9 Boytsov, Chagaev, Arreola. Those guys are all like 6'1". How many superheavies even make it into the top 5? I can only think of five which Ali might even struggle with.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
    OvidsExile, Apr 21, 2018
    OvidsExile, Apr 21, 2018
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