Is Archie Moore a Top Fifteen Heavyweight from 1900 - 1960 ?

There is a bit of ducks and drakes with these victories over champions.

For example, we are told we should credit fighters like Loughran for beating champions, like Baer, but when it is turned around and pointed out that Baer lost to Loughran, and Uzcudun, we immediately hear that Baer was not yet Baer.

So what exactly does beating a non-prime champion prove? It is one thing if we are considering fighters like Elmer Ray, or Rex Layne, who had wins over champions who were at the top of the division at the time.

It is quite another to credit someone like Larry Gains for beating a 19 year old Max Schmeling who was at the time a novice light-heavyweight. This version of Schmeling is a favorite over Moore?

I wish it were as simple as X beat a champion, and Y didn't, and so X is better.

As has been pointed out, Joey Maxim, Jimmy Bivins, Nino Valdes, and Harold Johnson all beat heavyweight champions, while Moore didn't, but Archie won 13 of 15 against those four. Longevity and consistency have to weigh on the scales also.

 

"Baer didn't fight from June 33 until June 35"

Baer won the championship from Carnera in 1934, and he looks at his best in the exhibition against Levinsky in the spring of 1935.

By the way, when we are rating fighters, should being dedicated enough to stay in shape and be somewhere near your best fight after fight count? Or is it only that one big win that matters?

 

Based on resume, I'd say not even close. His best performance at heavyweight is giving Marciano a really tough time on the way to getting knocked out. And I'm a much bigger fan of Archie than Rocky.

 

His heavyweight resume is impressive

Nino Valdez ...number 1 rated. Beat Ezzard Charles before Marciano did, Marciano management bypassed valses for Cockell. D Amato wanted nothing to do with Valdes in 58

Clarence Henry- number 3 in the world. one of the most fearsome punchers of the 50s. Put In the tape of his knockouts over baker and satterfield and you will be impressed. Marcianos and Louis' management avoided this guy

Bob baker- one of the best big men of the 50s. Highly rated, productive, very good skills and handspeed. Marciano and Pattersons management were not in a rush to fight this guy


Jimmy Bivins- hall of fame heavyweight. Duration champion of the world. Moore beat a very good version in 1946


Harold Johnson - beat a prime eddie Machen and Ezzard Charles proving his worth as a heavyweight

Joey Maxim . Defeated both jersey joe Walcott and Floyd Patterson

Bob satterfield .. deadly puncher

Alejandro Lavorante...highly rated big man who knocked out zora folley



I'd say a very impressive resume

 

Are you still at this?

And that's Moore's "HEAVYWEIGHT" resume? I think you're confused.

Harold Johnson was a light heavyweight, not a heavyweight. Moore and Johnson fought many times and the heaviest Johnson weighed for any of their fights was 174. How is Harold Johnson a great "HEAVYWEIGHT" win for Moore?

Joey Maxim was a light heavyweight, not a heavyweight. Moore and Maxim never fought each other at heavyweight. Again, how was beating Maxim a great HEAVYWEIGHT win for Moore?

Bob Satterfield was a light heavyweight until the last three years of his career. When Satterfield and Moore fought, Satterfield was a light heavy and Moore weighed in the 160s. How is a 168 pound guy beating a 175 pound guy a great HEAVYWEIGHT WIN?

That's like saying Montell Griffin defeating Roy Jones and James Toney were three GREAT HEAVYWEIGHT WINS for Montell (because Jones and Toney moved up to heavyweight later). It's nonsense.

And the heavyweights he did beat, like Nino Valdes, Bob Baker and Clarence Henry weren't world beaters. (And Joe Louis didn't "avoid" Clarence Henry. Where the hell did you get that?)

Also, you WHINED and said we couldn't mention Patterson wiping out Moore because that was "POST MARCIANO." We couldn't mention Johansson. We couldn't mention Liston. We couldn't mention Ali. But you bring up Lavoronte? Moore fought him the same year Ali beat Moore in 1962.

So are we going up to 1962 now? Lavoronte didn't turn pro until three years after Marciano retired. And Lavoronte was a nobody anyway.

You're literally all over the place with this.

Yes, beating Johnson and Maxim and Satterfield really elevate Moore's LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT resume. They don't do anything for his heavyweight resume, however.

And it doesn't help Moore that Johnson and Valdes outpointed an old Charles, because Ezzard had already beaten Moore three straight times and stopped Archie.

Archie doesn't get to claim some big victory, after Charles knocked him out, because five years later some guys Moore beat edged Ezzard. So what? He had three cracks at Ezzard and lost them all. Even got stopped.

Moore never beat a guy who held the heavyweight title. He fought them, but he lost to all of them.

Apparently, Moore's big claim to fame is in 200 pro fights, a couple of his opponents managed to beat guys who once held the heavyweight title at one point.

Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. Not at all.

In fact, when this started, I just blindly thought Moore was CLOSE to being in the top 15 heavyweights ever. But the more we talk about it, the further away from the top 15 heavyweights he gets for me. Because your arguments trying to hype him up are hopelessly flawed.

Hell, Montell Griffin has more wins over guys who won heavyweight titles than Archie Moore does.

Moore doesn't have the wins to be considered a top 15 heavyweight. Not even close, if we're being honest.

 

Exactly.

 

I'll let Edward pick apart your flawed arguments

You write good stuff about Tyson, but the 50s isn't your forte. Your logic has been way off the entire thread, and multiple posters have called you out on it.

I really don't care what you say, I've forgotten more about them 50s heavyweight scene than you will ever know.


If Edward doesn't take a stab at you tomorrow, I might be inclined to respond

 

Yes, apparently you forgot Moore didn't beat Johnson, Maxim or Satterfield at heavyweight, yet those are Moore's GREAT HEAVYWEIGHT WINS!!!

And now Edward is going to explain how beating Lavoronte counts as a win in the Marciano era.

And someday please do share how Joe Louis ducked Clarence Henry. Should be brilliant reading.

You lost.

 

Yes, Moore didn't fight Harold Johnson or Joey Maxim at heavyweight, but then again he didn't lose to Ezzard Charles at heavyweight either.

You gave Larry Gains credit for beating Max Schmeling. Was the 19 year old Schmeling a heavyweight. And sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Suzie mentioned Maxim beating Floyd Patterson. Both Schmeling and Patterson were 19 year old light-heavyweights.

For me the issue, if we are talking about a win over an opponent and how much it means at heavyweight, is how well was that man doing at heavyweight. Johnson was always rated at light-heavyweight and was generally a light-heavyweight in weight, but he beat Charles, Bivins, Godoy, Henry, Valdes, Gilliam, Bethea, Machen, etc. His list of wins at heavyweight is imposing. Maxim not quite as much, but still beat all kinds of top men like Walcott, Bivins, Sheppard, Tandberg, etc. So I think beating these men does mean something in a heavyweight ranking.

Why don't the victories of Maxim over Patterson and Gains over Schmeling mean so much. Because unlike Johnson and Maxim, Max & Floyd weren't at the time they lost these fights beating top heavyweights.

Heavyweight is the unlimited division, so I'm don't believe that your own weight is critical. If your opponent is a heavyweight, you beat a heavyweight. If your opponent can beat top heavyweights, you beat a man who bests top heavyweights.

Satterfield--Moore and Satterfield fought in 1949, I think, as light-heavies (although that 167 for Moore seems a typo) and The Ring tended to rate Satterfield for years as a lightheavy. But the last time Satterfield actually made 175 was for Nick Barone in Feb of 1950. I've seen NBA ratings for those years that had Satterfield at heavy. Whatever, though, Lee Oma, Baker, Cleveland Williams, John Holman, and Valdes among Bob's victims were full or even big heavies for the time.

 

Louis was Henry's idol. But Henry knew what a win over him meant for his career, so Henry's management offered Louis a fight in 1951 and Louis turned them down. Louis spoke very highly of Henry in his exhibition with him in 1950

Al Weill was offered a lot of money in 1952 to pair Marciano with Henry in a title eliminator, however fresh off victories over Layne and Louis...Weill wanted to protect marcianos higher ranking..so he took a fight with 36 year old savold instead

 

Should have read June 33- June 34.Not going there regarding the other questions I don't see them as being relevant to the thread.

 

If he isn't in the top 15 during that time frame I think he isn't too far away. TBH.
He doesn't make the cut for me in the newer thread.

 

Not quite, in my view. Halfway between 20 and 25 for me. 22 or 23, yo.