Is Bernard Hopkins an ATG?

You're right. But it won't change anyones mind.

 

What is your top 10 middleweight list?

 

How many elite MWs did Hagler beat? Is he an ATG? If you hold Hopkins to a certain standard, you cant mysteriously drop that standard for others, just because you "like" them more.

Elite fighters are elite fighters....regardless of weightclass. Which is why Hearns and Duran are considered great wins for Marvin, even tho (JUST LIKE OSCAR AND TITO), their MW resumes are subpar at best.

Hopkins beat Oscar (elite), Tito (elite), Winky (elite)....He also beat a slew of very very good fighters.

AND!

He outboxed Oscar (something NOONE gave him a chance of doing) before stopping him.

His win vs Tito is considered perfection by most (unbiased) boxing fans and experts.

Winky Wright is considered one of the best defensive fighters in the sport...Hopkins hit him clean all night and even had him wobbled in the 12th....something noone had done in over a decade (Vazquez..).

In the Tarver fight, Hopkins jumped two weight classes to take on the recognized champ in that division....WITHOUT A TUNEUP!!!...He dominated and shut him out.

Glen Johnson (undefeated & prime) was manhandled and stopped by Hopkins. Something noone has done since.

Vs Holmes, Hopkins put on another masterpiece. Basically shut him out. Same with Joppy...same with Vanderpool...etc.

If you substituted Duran's name for Oscar's, you would be just about spot on. Yet, I am sure you wouldnt be stupid enough to debate Hagler's resume...

Fact is, before the fight, most people thought Bernard would eventually stop Oscar, but NOONE gave him a chance to outbox him. So instead of bullying him, what did Hop do? Went in there for the first 6 rounds and boxed him (up on EVERY card except one...judges and press).

He had just DESTROYED a top 5 MW in William Joppy right before the fight...but he was ranked 80-90.... (and if you are talking all time...again, neither Hearns, nor Duran, nor Leonard rank high at all at MW...Hearns was a great WW....Leonard a great WW....Duran a great LW.) You really are letting your hate blind you.

Regardless of that. Take his name out and put Hearns' in there.....see my point?

Tarver was the recognized champ at LHW. He was THE MAN at that weight. But the biggest thing you are missing is what I spoke of above...He jumped two weights, took on the recognized champ, without so much a tune up, and DOMINATED HIM....at his advanced age, what he did was amazing.

Glen Johnson's record as a MW = 32-1-0 SMW = 5-6-0 LHW = 9-4-2

:-(

Again, you are missing the point. What is Duran's record at MW? Hearns? Leonard's? NONE of these guys were good MWs..but they were great fighters..which is why they were great wins for Marvin.

You need to get off of this weight over skill issue. It doesnt hold credence here....nor historically.

And again, look at how he BEAT Winky (as I quickly eluded to earlier).

:good

Jones is not a top 5 ATG MW. That is ridiculous. His record as a MW is miniscule. He won the vacant title vs Hopkins and defended it officially once. How is he a top 5 MW.

SMW you could argue, LHW is a DEFINATE!

And that fight, tho clear, was close. And was far from an easy win.

Glenn Johnson actually creditted Hopkins with showing him how to beat Jones after his win. So, again, who knows.

Taylor actually has a respectable MW record. He beat Joppy, Marquez, Spinks, Ouma, Hopkins (arguably), and drew with Winky. Those are all top names....

He was also arguably beating Pavlik.

This fight tho, as I mentioned is still debated today.

And again, we will look to Hagler for guidence on this one. Marvin lost to a fighter named Willie Monroe (a hell of a fighter actually)...who just so happened to lose to a fighter named Don Cobbs (24-19 career record). Does Hagler losing to Monroe mean he is not an ATG? Monroe would lose to Taylor...Monroe doesnt have near the resume of Taylor...so again, Marvin has shown us the way.

Skill will always matter....just as much...if not MORE, than weight.

Sorry buddy, I dont know of one Hopkins fan that has EVER used the "age" card in his losses to Taylor. Its the people who consistantly hate on him that use it day in and day out.

"Hopkins will show his age" "Taylor beat his old ass"

You even bringing this up is hypocrasy at its finest...as I have seen you spout that nonsense much more than any Hopkins fan ever has. His longevity proves his greatness....not diminishes it...unlike what the people of your ilk may have us believe.

You rip Hops resume, then call Joe an elite (I feel both are...but...again hypocrasy from you).

Let me rephrase what you said...better yet, translate it into non-bias form...just so the real fans can understand.

Hopkins fought great competition and dominated most of them...losing once to one of the greatest fighters of our time, as well as two close decisions that are still hotly debated today against another very good fighter. He is a two division champ, unifying the MW titles and setting the record for consecutive defenses...a record, which, coincidely kept him from moving up in weight to take on another great in Joe Calzaghe (if he moved up...no record...)...who just happens to be the name that Hopkins has now taken aim at making his farewell fight...what a great end to a great career.

Couldnt have said it better myself....thanks Jack. Next time tho, stop with the biased speak, noone could have ever guessed that you meant the above paragraph without my keen decyphering skills.

Your welcome...and I hope you learned something this time.

:hi:

 

^^^
Great post!

 

Great post, Sues2nd.

 

Holy crap Sues2nd there is simply nothing more to add.
Amazing post!

 

You can take any all time great fighters in history and analyse their records this way.

 

Thanks guys....:good

I actually had to cut the post down a bit....as it went over the 10000 character limit (who the hell knew there was a limit....:rofl ).

Seriously tho, Jack is, under normal circumstances, a very knowledgable and good poster, whom I respect alot. Its just when Hopkins name is mentioned....all logic goes out the window with the guy.

Its like Bernard robbed him when he was younger or something...either that or Jack really aint a fan of bad teeth....

 

His best win is against Tarver, now Hopkins is LHW champion and don't
have to defend this title against any one LHW contender.

 

I agree with Jack on the Tarver, Winky, Oscar and Tito wins, all of those are overrated, but still 'solid'. The Tito win is the most overrated, because he was a 1 dimensional LMW essentially who stylistically cannot handle a crafty boxer. Credit is due for the performance, but it still took Hopkins 12 rounds...:yep

But he also brutally shut out many guys like Joppy, Vanderpool and Echols/Holmes types. 20 defences, two weight champion, H2H a monster... was heavily avoided for a long time just like Calzaghe has been.

Of course he's an ATG.

Monzon - Hagler - Hopkins.

That's the way I see it, unless too much is put into old timey fighters like Greb.:yep

 

Uh. No.

 

KG was mentioning B abd B+ level guys like Vanderpool, Joppy, Holmes etc. who are underrated and who Hopkins made look like they were amatuers, not top 5 level professionals.

Funny thing is that some fighter, especially modern, just aren't going to develop resume's 'of the style' of old timers, because the sport was different back then simply, every match just about got made that the fans wanted. Even Monzon had title defences against past it former welters and a lot of B level guys you know?

Monzon is better all time than Hopkins, better resume by a bit also, but not by a mile. Sometimes you just have to stop looking at 'paper' and view for yourself what you think of these guys, challengers and 'atg's', it would help in sorting many a mess out. Especially this old vs. modern garbage nonsense.

 

But this possibiity is so ridiculus it will never happen :-(
However Wlad can still beat Toney who was great MW and if he KO him
it will look impressive on his record since nobody Koed Toney before. :deal

If you look statistically on ATG list and you assume the first 100 names
in the list over the history of boxing, then you have case that there
should be "statistically" around 6-7 boxer names per decade who may
have the chance to be put on that list ....

If you think about these 6-7 names of boxers who deserve to be
put in the first 100 ATG then Hopkins definitely belongs to them.
The complete different thing is at which position he should be over
there .. my guess is somewhere around 70-90 position is right.

The beautifull thing for Hopkins is that his career isn't over yet.

 

Though I dont fully agree.....that is a VERY GOOD fair and unbiased post.

Jack...you could learn something.

(and I love how my post immediately gets "Great post" comments...yet because you dont agree because of your bias, I dont know what I am talking about. Jack, come on...you are better than that.)