Is Bowe in your top 20 heavyweights list

It's just me, I really never thought much of Lewis before Steward, didn't even consider him a factor around the time of Bowe-Holy I. In fact, I considered that fight the consummate heavyweight championship of the time between easily the best fighters of that era. I also agree with Bowe, Ruddock was scared against Lewis, I see it in both his eyes and actions.

Bowe obviously wanted to fight Lewis, he made light of his Ruddock victory right to LL's face. Newman is the one who jumped between them...it was about the money, folks, as described in too many other friends to reference in this forum.

Now, STEWARD-ERA Lewis is a different animal, undeniable top 10 ATG heavy imo. Just under Holy.

 

Yes, I'd rate him on top 15 , perhaps at 15th spot. He beat prime Holyfield twice and even when Holyfield won the second bout, its a very close fight. He recovered from knockdown in his last bout against Holyfield. He's certainly at one point possessed an ATG ability.

That version of Holyfield in their first bout probably the best version of Holyfield.

 

I definitely agree. I'm not sure even guys like Lewis, Frazier (pre- and post-FOTC), Tyson, or 70s Ali could have beaten either of those men that night. And I'm confident any careful watcher of that fight would at least be inclined to agree.

 

I agree with alot of your posts.
We'll just have to disagree on this.
I think Lewis was vastly superior to Bowe.
Pre Steward Lewis still beats Bowe in my mind.
When Lewis was ultra motivated he was a tremendous fighter and he wouldve been motivated to fight Bowe way more than any other fight he ever had.
Just my view ..

 

In achievement and overall career, it’s debatable. In a h2h ranking list he makes it in my top 10.

 

Some solid arguments here but I would counter that Holyfield obviously had tons of determination, he was ALWAYS better when guys came to him , than when he was coming forward or brawling, he ran into jabs and was generally too easy to hit early on in his HW run when he was slugging.
Frazier and Tyson had a system and suiting style for getting inside whilw taking as little punishment as possible.
Holyfield strengths where in quickness, exquisite timing and boxing skills which where on display against foreman, Bowe(in the rematch and early in the third fight before he misteriously gassed) against mercer, Tyson etc when he was the guy letting the opponent come to him.

Against Holmes, Stewart, cooper and even moorer when he came straight at the other guy he was eating jabs and struggling badly and was imo ALWAYS going to lose eventually fighting that way against a big man with some skills and heart.
Obviously it still took a really good fighter to pull it off but that win alone doesn't make him a top ATG because imo, a slightly younger Holmes, a peak tucker( with the length, speed and movement) Lewis and a few other guys would have beat him also.
Holyfield after that first loss became a more seasoned overall better fighter even though he was aging

 

Holyfield in his first few years as a HW was so brawl happy and reckless that you could throw him in with a corpse or a literally hang a punching bag in the middle of the ring and he would make it a FOTY he was struggling with EVERYBODY and it was IMO no wonder that eventually he would just not be able to pull it off anymore.


And unfortunately Bowe didn't fight enough of the other top guys to prove me wrong, and the fact that he
1. Wasn't able to ever replicate his form
2. Got rocked and hurt by lesser fighters and struggled against old guys that Tyson blew out before they were shot like tubbs and Biggs makes me suspect I was right.

People always complain about the excuses made for Tyson but he at least had a run of a few years where he looked spectacular for several fights against the best guys around and blew out a few decent guys even after jail 10 years after his "peak"

But the Bowe legend is made off a single night

 

Good post, but it seemingly ignores the fact that Bowe is a two-time champion (and, last I checked there weren't too many of those), having beaten an unbeaten fighter who was absolutely no joke (check out the compilation videos on Herbie Hide on youtube, the guy was pretty damn killer...though he would have made out SO much better as a Cruiserweight).

It was mostly Bowe's fights against Golota where he really showed he was washed up. The fact that Futch outright left verifies this.

 

Since Liston is on any top 20 HW list for beating Patty twice, Bowe is on mine for beating Holyfield two times!

 

Good reasoning

I honestly have a bit of a hard time putting Liston above Bowe, because he really wasn't around that long either and he fought less. But I do put Sonny above, mostly just for the benefit of a doubt.

I honestly think 1992 Bowe would have smacked the crap out of even prime Liston.

 

Absolutely! The reasoning to put him above Bowe is very thin.
Keep that in mind when fans put Liston above Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier or Wlad.

 

That's ridiculous imo.

 

The WBO was not a real world title back then. If it was, then Ray Mercer is a HW champ.

Hide had good skills but a glass jaw and if I brought him up to defend Tyson's or Holyfield or Lewis' resumee I would be laughed at.

If you criticize Lewis' chin then I could point you to a bunch of heavy hitters he beat.
If you say Tyson couldn't deal with a jab I could point to a bunch of jabbers he beat.

But with Bowe, the problem is that once you look past the Holyfield win(which I already said I feel is overrated) there just isn't that much

 

Imo if you accept all the excuses for Bowe then you have to for Tyson as well.
If you put Bowe in the top 15 then Tyson is top 6ish.

But maybe that's just me, I also feel like Frazier lives off a single win over Ali who was still rusty and hadn't learned how to clinch and fight like a crafty/dirty "veteran" yet like he did against foreman and the Frazier rematch. One big night and all of a sudden he's past it and just happens to miss the big punchers of his era and loses brutally to the one he did face.

Who knows, maybe if Bowe had been thrown in with everybody like Norton was, he would have several losses as well despite the big win(s) over Ali.

You can't completely judge a fighter if he didn't face all of the styles, maybe he avoided a major embarrassment just through matchmaking

 

After a quick check online I just verified what I already knew: Mercer was a heavyweight champ, just as Riddick was a two-time. Look it up. Whatever the status of that belt in the mid-90s, well...history corrected all that. It's a totally accepted belt and has been so for years.

I disagree that Bowe's rep lies entirely on the Holy fight, and to be blunt I think Hide would have given ANY heavyweight trouble back when Bowe beat him. I can't see him winning against the best, but just watch him in action: Hide was one of the quickest heavies ever and he had a surprisingly serious punch when he wanted to. His kayo record speaks for itself.

I don't have to defend Bowe, it's on record he's a two-time champion and he beat one of the top 5 heavyweights of all time in both of their primes imo.

No disrespect to your post, its points have validity, no doubt.