Is Calzaghe TBE?

now you've corrected yourself, you can lash out desperately with name calls all you want.

the correction was the only bit I wanted to see, and you've done that, that's fine.

in your opinion, veit king of 4-6 rounders, is a good victory.

SUrely if veit king of 4-6 rounders, is a good victory to you, then you must think that calzaghes early sub-domestic fights that were scheduled 4-6 rounds are also great victories? SUrely you must think that Hopkins 6 round prison fights are as good as Veit, going on your logic, that is. YOu must deduce that these victories by Joe over nobodies or Hopkins prison fights were as good as Roy's victories over Toney and Hopkins.

lol.

 

Fixed

 

If you're willing to have an intelligent and objective debate, I'll gladly oblige you.

My criteria for rating wins, is as follows:


Taking a look at how good the opponent was.

Assessing where they were in their careers at the time of the fight.

Assessing what they'd achieved just prior to the fight.

Assessing what they went onto to achieve afterwards.

Taking into account, any circumstances. (age, no. of fights, weight loss/gain, disadvantages etc)

Taking into account, the manner of the victory.

Taking into account the accomplishment of the victory.



Roy's best wins:


Thomas Tate.

A decent fighter who went the distance with Julian Jackson, was blown out in under 6 mins by Roy in 1994. Nine years later, he was deemed a credible opponent for Joe at SMW.


Bernard Hopkins.

Bernard hadn't achieved much, but he was 28, and was deemed a very good MW. Roy was only 24, hadn't fully matured, and had an injured right hand. Roy won comfortably, and Bernard didn't go on to lose for another 12 years.


Thulani Malinga.

A very good fighter who gave Chris Eubank and Nigel Benn lots of problems. Roy beat him with ease, stopping him in 6 rounds.


James Toney.

James had weight issues, but was considered one of the best fighters on the planet. Roy completely shut him out with absolute ease, winning almost every round. Also, Jackie Kallen, who was James's manager, has stated numerous times, that James was happy to take the fight, and was more than confident that he'd win.


Montell Griifin.

A very good, counter punching LHW, trained by Eddie Futch, who'd beaten a very good version of James Toney twice. Roy knocked him out in under three minutes, with a lead uppercut. Knocking out a guy of that calibre, that early, is impressive. Knocking a guy out with a lead shot is even more impressive. But with a lead uppercut? That's spectacular in my opinion. I've never seen any other guy knock someone out with a lead uppercut from that distance. An amazing win.


Virgil Hill.

Virgil was past his best when Roy fought him, and he was coming off of a loss to Dariusz M. However, he was still a very good fighter, and Roy stopped him early with an amazing body shot. Roy was the only guy to ever stop him in 57 fights, and two years after his loss to Roy, he went on to beat Fabrice Tiozzo in just a single round. Like Roy's win over Griffin, it's the manner of the victory that stands out.


Reggie Johnson.

Reggie was also past his best when he fought Roy. However, he was still a very good fighter, and a southpaw, who Roy beat with absolute ease.


Julio Gonzalez.

Julio Gonzalez was a good LHW, who went on to beat Dariusz M (at the end of his career) after Roy had beaten him with ease.


Clinton Woods.

Not a great fighter by any stretch, but a capable fighter, who Roy made look like an absolute nobody, toying with him for 6 rounds.


John Ruiz.

John Ruiz wasn't a great HW. But he was a tough, effective HW, who'd beaten and dropped Evander Holyfield. He outweighed Roy by two stone on fight night, and by four stone naturally. Roy was also 34, with almost 50 fights on his resume. Roy dominated him with absolute ease. Any LHW that dominates ANY top 5 HW, deserves huge credit.


Antonio Tarver.

One of Roy's best wins, if not his best win, IMHO. Roy kept his Ruiz physique of just under 200 pounds, throughout 2003, up to the summer months, in the hope of landing a big money fight at HW. When one failed to materialise, he then had to shed the weight in a hurry, to get back to LHW to face Tarver. He dropped from a solid 196, with a low body fat percentage, to 175 for the weigh in, burning through actual muscle in the process. A huge ask at almost 35, after 50 fights. Tarver was a fresher fighter, and posed a huge stylistic threat, being a tall, fast southpaw. He was also trained by Buddy McGirt and was unbelievably motivated. After 9 rounds, Roy was completely exhausted, and was running on fumes. In his previous 49 fights, Roy had never been as tired. He had to dig deep, and come through adversity to pull out the win, and in doing so, became only the second fighter in history, to reclaim the LHW belts, after holding belts at MW, LHW and HW. In the same way as the Griffin and Hill fights are held in high regard due the manner of victory, this win is held in high regard, due to his age and the circumstances involved.


Other notable wins include:


Lou Del Valle - a good southpaw.

Eric Harding - a huge southpaw who'd beaten Tarver.

Richard Hall - a big southpaw who gave Dariusz M two tough fights. Roy gave him a merciless hiding.

Vinny Pazienza - Roy threw an incredible 6 punch combo whilst walking forward, to finish the fight. A spectacular knockout.



Now you do the same for Joe, using fair criteria, and allowing for circumstances.

Be objective, and let's see how his wins stack up against Roy's.

 

I'd like you to elaborate more please.

IMHO, the win over Roy wasn't good, because of where Roy was in his career, and because Joe had said on two occasions that he didn't want to face Roy because he was finished.

The Eubank win also can't be classed as great. Look at the circumstances. Eubank was at the end of his career, and was preparing to fight Mark Prince, an orthodox LHW, when on only 11 days notice, had to prepare for a southpaw at SMW. Eubank was past his best when he lost to Collins, over two years earlier, which was the last time he'd fought at the weight. He'd also been inactive, having only fought two low key fights within that two year period. Also, he had to drastically change his diet to make weight, and he also had to have injections in his bad knees. Eubank also admitted in his autobiography, that in his opinion, if Ronnie Shields had been with him, he wouldn't have let him take the fight under those circumstances. However, Eubank was more than up for the challenge, and it was Joe's first big fight at 25. So you could class it as a good win, or a very good win. But due to the factual information above, I can't see how it can be classed as a great win.

The Lacy win was an amazing performance.

The Kessler win was great, as in it was to unify the division, which Joe had been waiting to do since he turned pro in 93. But it was a competitive fight, and personally, I wouldn't say Kessler was a great fighter. So in my opinion, it was a very good win, although I won't argue against what you've said.

The Hopkins win looks great on paper. But Bernard couldn't deal with volume and movement at that stage of his career, and IMHO, it was quality over quantity, that should have resulted in a draw. Other fighters have beaten Hopkins easier, and I don't class those as truly great wins. Therefore, I can't class Joe's win over him as great.

 

@ Loudon.

Tate - i agree it's a good solid win.

Hopkins - i can only give this as a good win considering the time the fight happened.

Malinga - another genuine good win.

Toney - very good win. would be great, but the problems he was having at the time are well documented. at the time, i didn't see why Roy was insistent on getting the fight. now we know differently. he knew, just as everyone did at the time, that Toney was in a bad place.

Griffin - good win.

Hill - i'll be fair and call it a great win. Hill was past his best at this point, but not by much.

Johnson - can't give any credit for this one. he was too far gone.

Gonzalez - good win. Julio lost to pretty much all the top guys around, but has a win over a well past best DM. i'll let this one in.

Woods - good win. but i can't ignore that Woods had an iron deficiency at the time of the fight. Woods actually retired not long after due to feeling weak all the time, but a doctor told him what the problem was. they sorted it, and Woods went and made something of himself. but i do see that Jones would have beaten him with out the problems, so i'll let that slide. but it can't be ignored.

Ruiz - very good win. can't see it being anything higher than that. if a Heavy were to beat him, it's just a good win. but due to Jones being a LHW, i'll boost it up another level.

Tarver - he didn't win that one i'm afraid. 116-113 Tarver.

De Valle - worthless. he didn't beat a single fighter worth a ****. you have to beat at the very least, one good fighter. he didn't. that definitely doesn't stand.

Harding - that gets in as a good win, yes.

Hall - he is trash. you can't give it as a good win just because he gave someone a tough fight. he needs at least one win. he doesn't, so he doesn't stand.

Vinny - are you having a ****ing laugh or something???

Calzaghe has the better wins. clearly.

 

you tell me if you disagree with my rating.

Eubank wasn't past it 2 years earlier. jesus, he only became Middle champ in 1990. that's only 5 years later.

Joe hadn't fought anyone worth a lick by that point, so he didn't have the experience that a vet like Eubank had. that even things out a bit. but had Joe of been a handful of times in title defences, i'd just call it a very good win. but that's not the case. it's a genuine great win.

Jones was past his best, yeah. but he was still top ten at the time. he'd had enough time to clear his head and get some confidence back. Joe was having his last fight at the age of 37. it stands as a good win under those conditions.

 

Others OK wins nothing more, only really good fighters he beat are Hopkins and Kessler, fact that Lacy was hyped doesnt make him good.

 

Assassin,

Good stuff, I'll reply tomorrow.

 

:rofl You say win over Lacy as great but win over Toney as very good :rofl Toney with one hand behind his back is 10x better fighter than Lacy ever could have dreamed of being!!!

 

cool. i've things i need to do myself so i'm going off in the minute.

hey, just think, we're actually being pretty civil with each other Today and actually getting somewhere. strange.

that may change Tomorrow though, but we'll see. :good

 

do you actually know of all the weight problems that Toney was having at that point???

his career went over the edge for years afterwards.

 

RJJ ranks higher than any of the three you mentioned.

 

I'm taking that into account but even with any kind of problem he is much better fighter than Lacy, i understand Lacy was vastly overrated but he is nothing totally irrelevant fighter in history has no shot to get in HOF, i repeat fact that Americans overrated him doesnt mean he was great fighter. Good win but Toney win is absolutely much better win
Funniest thing to me is many Joe fans put that win even over Kessler win which is very funny since Kessler was much better than Lacy, granted didnt have all the hype behind him but he was much better.

 

He beat more title holders, champs and contenders than Joe did...fact.

 

And I liked Joe C. But RJJ has the better resume.