Is Carlos Ortiz greater than Julio Cesar Chavez?

No doubt people will say Lomachenko could beat Laguna. I doubt he would.

 

I doubt it too.

 

Crawford has the best chance. Hard to say how good he is though.

 

Ortiz was better than Chavez and would beat him H2H

 

Do you think prime Chavez looses to Johnny Busso, Carlos Teo Cruz and Kenny lane and ? I certainly don't

 

It's close but I'd say Chavez was slightly greater I would pick him to beat Ortiz too but he would have to be at his very best.

 

The Busso fight was very close.
Unofficial scorecards

• UPI - 6-4 Ortiz
• AP - 6-4 Busso
• An unofficial poll of 14 ringside sportswriters had 6 favoring Ortiz, 3 for Busso and 5 scoring it a draw.

"The fight was so good and so close, we'd like a rematch in late August." -Harry Markson, managing director of the IBC
Post fight comments

• "Champion of the East side tonight, champion of the world tomorrow." -Johnny Busso

• "No, I won't protest the decision. What's the use? But I know I won the fight. I'd have won it going away if the referee hadn't kept breaking us too fast." -Carlos Ortiz.
• Losing to Lane is no disgrace he was a very good fighter. Ortiz lost a majority decision ,stopped him in the rematch and won a unanimous decision in the rubber.

Carlos was a party animal and not always in the best of shape, witness the first Laguna fight he dropped the ball on occasion but ,when in shape, was a great fighter.

• Ortiz was past prime when he lost to Cruz.
• Would Ortiz have lost to Frankie Randall?

 

Bump
Admittedly I knew very little of Carlos Ortiz. But just recently he is becoming a fighter that I am now starting to fully appreciate and admire more as I read up and watch his fights. Just based on his resume and his versatility and abilities on film I think Ortiz really does have a case of being a greater ATG than Chavez. Amazing boxer.

 

Heck of a good h2h matchup at lightweight, that's all I'll say.

 

Puerto Rico's greatest against Mexico's greatest (in my view, anyhow!). Certainly would have been a hugely impassioned and anticipated matchup at 135 / 140 if their careers had collided. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of those who go with Ortiz for having the greater record and achievements, but I tend to think there's a clear enough edge to Chavez here.

Much of Ortiz's greatness lies in his consistency. In his peak years as Lightweight champion, virtually all of his (very rare in any case) defeats came north of 135 lb. But consistency could have been Chavez's middle name. Forget the keep-busy fights that he padded his record with - he doesn't need them. The body of his championship work for a whole decade from 1984 to 1994 was astonishing. Chavez had a genuine claim to be the world's best fighter, pound for pound, from 1987 up to 1993, or at the very least 1990 to 1993. I'm not sure there was ever a time in Ortiz's career where he could have made that claim, but even if he could, I doubt it would have been sustainable for as long as it was in Chavez's case. Even someone as consistent as Ortiz had the occasional hiccup, but Chavez was never beaten until he was probably a little past his peak, and that was after two lengthy spells as a champion at 130 and 140, with a 135 unification in between.

Ortiz was incredibly effective and his record is packed with quality, but Chavez has the edges in my view.

 

Ortiz was active and in or not far from his prime at the same time as Ali, Griffith, Rodriguez, Jofre, Tiger, Brown, Harada, Laguna, Locche, Elorde, Saldivar, Ramos, Ebihara and a slew of others. Chavez had nowhere near that level and depth of greatness to stand out against in comparison where p4p rankings were concerned, and Ortiz was still considered amongst the best in the world for most of the decade. He beat four of the aforementioned guys if you include the Locche fight.

He was slightly less consistent than Chavez because of superior opposition and far less dedication, which was why he occasionally dropped the ball. He was more or less a full blown alcoholic and gambling addict by the time he lost to Teo Cruz, himself an excellent fighter. Prior to that he often did most of his training in bars and casinos and could **** an entire purse up the wall on the night after a fight. It's remarkable that he remained such a physical specimen and only slipped up once in his prime against Laguna really. His greatness stems from this and the widely differing array of excellent to great stylists he conquered. Rosi, Kosaka, Vaillant, Bizzarro, Busso, Torres, Matthews, Charnley etc make for a bloody good list of scalps even before you mention Brown, Lane, Locche, Elorde, Ramos, Loi and Laguna. I love Chavez but he just doesn't have that level of depth on his CV and looks no better a fighter on film to me.

The other thing that has crucially shifted my opinion of Ortiz in recent years is having seen the second fight against Loi, where he was robbed. The chap who lent me the fight had also seen the third fight and said it was much of the same. I believe klompton has also seen both fights and also believes that Carlos was robbed. I'm sure there are still substantial rbr highlights of fight two kicking around on the net on a media streaming site somewhere that sum up the fight quite well. What I held as a black mark on his record, the trilogy loss to Loi, I no longer do. It's another series win, arguably 3-0, over another outstanding fighter.

 

Such a great tread. Bump!

 

I’m a bit late to this excellent question. I wouldn’t want to pick a winner head-to-head, but I like Ortiz’s résumé just a little bit better, & rank accordingly.

 

De La Hoya is my hero

 

I have Ortiz as clear cut greater than Chavez.