Ok so I'm researching the history of the LHW division at present and I've completed my studies on all the "lufcrazy world champs" up until Archie Moore. I gotta say, Charels as a divisional great isn't something I'm sold on after looking deeper. Allowing a bit of leeway with the divisinal limits (both fighters between 170 and 180) his meaningful record seems to be wins over the following ranked opponents: Moore (3-0-0), Marshall (2-0-0), Smith (2-0-0), Bivins, Lesnevich and Fitzpatrick. Furthermore I think he was the premiere lhw from 1946 - 1949. Now H2H he is one of the best, I have no doubting that and the victories he scored over hw's such as ray, whilst weighing 175 are great. But does he have the greatest LHW resume? I'm not so sure: Greb has: Meehan, Zulu (3-0-0), Moha (3-0-0), Smith (2-0-0), McGoorty, Levinsky (3-0-0), Dillon (2-0-0), Miske (2-0-0), McTigue, Gibbons (2-1-0), Renault (3-0-0), Norfolk, Tunney (2-3-0)*, Loughran (3-0-0), Delaney (3-0-0), Burke, Houck (3-0-0), Slattery, Rosenbloom, Marullo (2-0-0), J Smith (3-0-1) Tunney has: Houck (2-0-0), Burke (2-0-0), Levinsky, Greb (3-2-0), Loughran (0-0-1), Renault, Delaney (2-0-0), Carpentier, Smith (2-0-0), Gibbons and Moore has: Bolden (2-0-0), Marshall (2-0-0), Bivins (1-1-0), Williams (1-1-0), Charles (0-3-0), Chase (1-0-1), Lytell (2-0-0), Zander, Smith (3-0-0), Williams (3-0-0), Morrow (1-1-0), Satterfield, Kid (2-0-0), Johnson (3-1-0), Maxim (3-0-0), Martinez, Olsen, Pompey, Anthony, Durelle (2-0-0), Rinaldi So i'm not convinced Charles has the best resume. Did he achieve the most in the division? I think he has a total of 4 years as top dog, whereas Moore has 11, Foster 7 and Jones 6 (The latter 2 I've not studied in depth yet but I've charted that as their preliminary tenure as lufcrazy lhw champion) I don't think his h2h abilities and skillset are enough to overlook the success of Moore and the resume of Greb. I don't think any victories over men outside of the lhw division have any relevance for anything other than evaluation of skillset neither. Granted my studies haven't come to an end, but I have covered up until 1960 and I don't think the argument as lhw for charles is completely compelling (atleast not by my criteria which is measured on resume, accomplishments and h2h-ability) Thoughts :think
Based on who's the best. I think Bob Foster stooped far too much for a tall man and should have had a better right for a tall man, his comp also isn't too hot. Actually compared to other LHWs (Charles aside) RJJ probably has the most underrated comp and he barely lost a round to them
Roy Jones didn't even beat the best of his era(DM) so how could he possibly be number 1 all time? He also never took on big punchers at 175lb, which is where he is most vulnerable. I have Charles beating Jones my knockout h2h. Charles has the much better skills/fundamentals and the reflexes to be able to cope with Jones's speed. Jones can't take Charles best punch.
Jones wouldn't rank as a top 10 even in head to head terms for my money, and doesn't come remotely close in terms of achievement. I thought he was clearly better at Middle and Super Middle.
Regardless of where people view jones as a h2h force at lhw, how do you rate charles in the division and what criteria do you use?
The quality of the men he beat along with the dominance he displayed might overwrite the fact that he doesn't have as deep of a resume as some other fighters. I've never thought that beating a high number of ranked opponents automatically makes you a greater fighter than another boxer who did not fight as many. Otherwise Virgil Hill might have a claim. Some of the names you used as notable wins for Greb, Moore and Tunney aren't really any better than the likes of Sam Baroudi, Christoforidis, or Beckwith. It's also arguable that some of the fights shouldn't be included as light heavyweight efforts. Meehan for example weighed well over 175 in many of his fights, Bob Moha was rated a middleweight as was Bert Lytell and so on. What it might really come down to is Charles holding wins over Moore, Bivins, Maxim and Marshall, Greb holding wins over Tunney, Gibbons and Norfolk, Tunney holding wins over Greb, Gibbons and Levinsky, Moore holding wins over Johnson, Maxim, Marshall and Bivins. Charles comes out the best in that category based on his dominance. He established an unquestionable superiority over those men during the length of their series.
Agreed. Quite a few of those listed for Greb and Moore wouldn't rate as Lt. Heavyweight wins in my book.
Not automatically at all. I was comparing the top end wins for example tunney, dillon and gibbons etc. The volume was there so I left it in. The weight I explained in the op, 170-180 apart from certain circumstances. Hopkins beating kelly at lhw is meaningful despite kelly never fighting at the division. I used the same logic where possible. Back then it's hard nailing down which fights to count, for example 162 v 167 i'd count as a mw fight but 169 v 180 i'd count as lhw etc.
That is a hard question: I consider Charles, at his peak, from what I've read and seen, to be one of the top 5 all time pound for pound. But to isolate it at 175...could he have beaten Tunney, or Greb, or Foster? I have so many biases for each of them, I couldn't honestly say. How do you isolate it?
I'm not sure I agree although that might be due to Pavlik's lack of any kind of pedigree at light heavyweight. I do agree that when it comes to old fights which were not always fought at the limit, you have to take into account whether those fighters could have made the weight and how proven they were at that weight. In that case I'd still leave out fighters like Bob Moha or Lytell whose best efforts were at middleweight. In cases like Greb-Norfolk 1 I'd call them light heavyweight fights.