Is Charlie Mitchell worthy of top 100 P4P placing?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Undefeated Lachbuster, May 30, 2019.


  1. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

    4,896
    7,569
    Jul 18, 2018
    Charlie Mitchell was a heavyweight contender despite weighing between 140-160 pounds in his prime. He defeated many men outweighing him by 30-50 pounds. He reportedly fought over 100 fights consisting of bareknuckle brawls and gloved matches, but as per usual of fighters from this period, info on some of these are lost or non-existent. It wasn't uncommon for Mitchell to fight multiple times a day.

    His average gloved opponent weighed 176lbs, 26lbs heavier than Mitchell's prime weight, and 5'11", 2" taller than him.

    Mitchell fought the lightweight champ of England to a draw, and became the heavyweight champion of England. After beating undefeated #1 ranked contender Mike Cleary whilst weighing 30lbs (some reports state 40lbs) lighter, he was given a shot at John L Sullivan.

    Sullivan knocked Mitchell down 3 times in the first round, but Mitchell rallied to knock Sullivan down, despite weighing 40lbs lighter than John L. This was the first time John L had been down in his career. Sullivan rallied to stop Mitchell in the 3rd. He later fought Sullivan to a 39 round draw in a bareknuckle fight. He fought undefeated contender Patsy Cardiff to a draw.

    https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...rdiff&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

    ^ reports Cardiff trains down to 200lbs, Mitchell could've been outweighed by 50lbs. He weighed 155 for his fight before Cardiff. Cardiff wasn't unknown to come in at 185-190 though.

    Mitchell came out of a 3 year layoff of gloved fighting in 1890 to beat Jem Mace (who he had fought multiple times bareknuckle), who's considered the father of modern boxing and was a giant killer himself, and reclaimed the English heavyweight championship. He reportedly knocked Frank Slavin around silly in their final NC of 1891. He must've fought Kilrain a billion times bareknuckle.

    Mitchel went his first 17 fights unbeaten at 15-0-2. Later in the 1890s his gloved career becomes harder to read due to all the No Contests he fought. His recorded bareknuckle fights are already a mess.

    BitVesti's infinitely more informational thread than mine:

    https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/charlie-mitchell.622951/

    There was scarcely a fight Mitchell had where he wasn't outweighed by at minimum 15lbs. Despite this, he was champ of England, the #1 contender in the world, and is generally considered the best man Sullivan fought (gloved) before Corbett. Does he deserve top 100 P4P?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  2. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

    10,088
    19,192
    Jul 25, 2015
    Not my strong suit.
    Would you say he was better than Mace?
     
  3. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

    4,896
    7,569
    Jul 18, 2018
    Yes, though BitVesti is more qualified to answer that than me
     
    roughdiamond likes this.
  4. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

    27,126
    44,859
    Mar 3, 2019
    I'd say no. Based of his Boxrec and reading the post, he seemed to rack up his wins against people making there debut and then lost to his best opponents from my eyes, probably best to ask @BitPlayerVesti
     
  5. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

    4,896
    7,569
    Jul 18, 2018
    The reason they're listed as debuting is usually because their previous fights aren't recorded or they're transitioning from bareknuckle, as an FYI

    Not that I mind the call though. I currently don't have him top 100, I just think he has an argument
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  6. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

    10,088
    19,192
    Jul 25, 2015
    BoxRec is incomplete in regards to bare knuckle and early era. Even people on the level of Wilde and Fitzsimmons have incomplete records.
     
  7. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,096
    Oct 28, 2017
    Like others said boxrec from that era is so complete as to be misleading. For example in a tournament he beat Joe Stubbins who is listed as on their debuts. Actually in the same tourament Stubbins had already beaten T.H Gardner, and Charles Hudson.


    You're better looking at the reports, I'll try and get around to posting more on him, but it'll take a while to get to it.


    Most people probably wouldn't, and I certainly wouldn't be offended by not including him, but I think he's worthy of consideration.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,609
    18,362
    Jun 25, 2014
    No.

    No fighter whose last win was nearly 130 years ago (in what was essentially a Prizefighter tourney) belongs in the top 100 P4P.

    In fact, John L. Sullivan doesn't belong in the top 100 (P4P or heavyweights) anymore, let alone someone who couldn't beat Sullivan.
     
  9. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

    4,896
    7,569
    Jul 18, 2018
    Mitchell was outweighed by 40lbs against Sullivan.......

    Sullivan had a 10 year title reign, in that reign he was an undefeated monster and considered arguably the greatest heavyweight of those times.

    Yet he's not top 100 worthy???
     
  10. Reason123

    Reason123 Not here for the science fiction. Full Member

    1,113
    270
    Jul 27, 2015
    I could see it. Definitely some impressive things going on there.
     
  11. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,096
    Oct 28, 2017
    I think Mace was better, but it's hard to say. Mace did surprisingly well when they fought considering his age.

    It is worth noting Mace was bigger than Mitchell.

    I think Mace and other bareknuckle fighters deserve consideration for P4P lists, but I'm really in the minority there. Tom Sayers is up there too, though I don't know a lot on him.

    A complexity is that it is easier to overcome weight disadvantages under bareknuckle rules.
     
    roughdiamond and janitor like this.
  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

    27,126
    44,859
    Mar 3, 2019
    He def belongs in the top 100 HWs, probably top 20, 15 at a push.

    If the reports that BitPlayer was talking are correct (and they have no reason to be lying) against that caliber of fighter then he has an argument for top 100 pfp. He wouldn't make mine but I could see it
     
  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

    27,126
    44,859
    Mar 3, 2019
    Mind doublechin he's not very bright. He's probably ranks Wilder above him
     
  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

    8,584
    11,096
    Oct 28, 2017
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  15. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

    4,896
    7,569
    Jul 18, 2018
    BitPlayerVesti likes this.