Is Crawfords best win Spence?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by LenHarvey, Dec 28, 2024.


  1. BoxingIQ

    BoxingIQ Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,100
    972
    Nov 6, 2017
    If we're using context on when Crawford fought his opponents, i would give the edge to Madrimov. Spence was weight drained. Porter was already contemplating retirement, Horn was overrated, postal was overrated, kav was overrated, Khan and brook were shot, and Gamboa was too small. Madrimov was at least prime, undefeated, and skilled. But that doesn't say much about Crawfords resume. I think had Crawford foughtball the fighters listed in prime he would have at least a loss or controversial draw
     
    ruffryders likes this.
  2. Cafe

    Cafe Sitzpinkler Full Member

    38,328
    7,898
    Sep 2, 2011
    Nah, it's impressive. Crawford's achievements have been entirely predictable, no one is shocked that he went to do what he did. I think VERY few people were genuinely expecting Usyk to do as well as he did at HW, it's more comparable to when Pacquiao moved up to WW.

    I will give that maybe it's not AS impressive in hindsight because I do actually think AJ, Fury and Wilder were somewhat products of good marketing but it's hard to say, maybe Usyk is just that good, you have to stay objective. I don't put THAT much stock in freak losses at heavyweight either, it's there but given that everyone has KO power, anything can happen.

    The deeper talent pool (I guess because of demographics) is kind of an awkward way of looking at things for me. I think it HAS to be looked at relatively, IE whatever makes a heavyweight stand out or be great is relative to other available competition (active and historic) not just absolute number of boxers across weight classes. Otherwise you're just giving welterweights a boost purely for being welterweights rendering p4p comparisons kind of pointless. A better approach is a relative eye test, what was there before in the weight class etc.

    And that's beside the fact that I am really not sure if 135-160 has actually been more talented in recent years even in raw terms, namely due to a surge of good British and EE fighters who tend to fight higher up, shifting popularity etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2025
    Smoochie likes this.
  3. MURK20

    MURK20 Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,519
    1,344
    Sep 26, 2008
    [

    I agree that Usyk’s accomplishments are impressive and Crawford’s are just meh to most fans. That’s because the bar is set higher for America talent. The world is used to it and obviously tired of it. When anyone else does this the hyperbole begins. Usyk’s and Pacquiao’s rise the their respective weight classes are not comparable. Pacquiao battered through his competition. Usyk’s remarkable stamina and brilliant ring IQ gave him his name.

    AJ v Ruiz I was not a freak loss. After Ruiz got up from the knockdown and AJ trying to close the show, his punches became faster and shorter. AJ is just a slow dude. Ruiz just ruined himself for the rematch by eating everything put in front of him.

    Lightweight through Middleweight have always been the hottest divisions in boxing. I don’t believe that EE or any other group will make a difference. Their biggest stars will come from those divisions. Beterbiev is standing atop a dead 175 with Bivol below. They can only rematch each other like Usyk with Fury and AJ to make money and keep the public entertained.
     
    MagnificentMatt likes this.
  4. African Cobra

    African Cobra The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council banned Full Member

    27,342
    10,121
    May 29, 2007
    It was a dominant win against the best fighter he has faced which is to his credit.
     
    FreddieGibbs and MagnificentMatt like this.
  5. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

    80,249
    131,512
    Jul 21, 2009
    :lol: Firstly, there's nothing ''questionable'' about Usyk's wins over Belly and AJ. All four of his wins over them are excellent wins against way bigger opponents who hold massive or obscene physical advantages over him, in their backyards or on the road on decks stacked or heavily stacked against him and obviously when you're giving away those kind of physical advantages you're playing Russian roulette in a division full of giants and murderous punchers and big punchers whose KO% have been amassed against fellow giants and men their size not blown up CWs

    All of which Crawford has never done once in his entire career, let alone many times

    And the irony of Crawford fans trying to discredit Usyk and diminish his wins because of his opponents being ''damaged'' in some way couldn't be more priceless.

    Spence, who forged a career cleaning out 147 of its 140 pounders (and blown up 135 Mikey) who only fought 2 career 147 pounder world champs in his career and he struggled badly against both despite one being damaged goods, and who like Crawford has also forged a career barely facing any punchers, especially ones his size, crashed his car whilst driving at high speeds whilst drunk and landed on his face. He looked bloody weird during his ring walk, pupils the size of saucers and like he was stoned out of his goddamn mind

    A Shawn Porter who was coming off double hip replacement surgery and never fought again

    Shot Brook who was damaged goods after GGG shattered his eye socket, let alone after suffering two broken orbital sockets.

    You should read up on what hell he went through both mentally and physically after suffering the first injury. Aside from going through a deep depression believing his career was over and being told by his surgeon that one more punch could've blinded him, they had to remove his eyeball via his mouth to fix the broken socket. And then he had to go through it all again after his very next fight

    Peg-leg cripple Jose Benavidez who had no right being in a boxing ring ever again after being shot in the leg and was told by his doctor he may never walk again, let alone fight because of the severity of the injury.

    He used to cry from the physical pain it caused him during training and you could clearly see in the Crawford fight he had trouble moving in and out of range due to the injury

    Shot glass chinned Khan

    And these are all fighters Crawford's size or roughly his size, maybe shot Brook being heavier

    The reason we cite Crawford's weight and him being the bigger man so often, rarely the smaller man, and extremely if ever much smaller, is because, duh, his fans pretend or act like he's some little blown up 135 pounder who has been overcoming the odds fighting much bigger men when this is complete and utter nonsense and because they cite this when it comes to P4P debates regarding Crawford and fighters who actually are doing that and actually are routinely giving away a lot or huge amounts of weight and reach :facepalm:

    As said, he was coming in as high as 153 at 135

    A high as 157 at 140

    Easily 162 bare minimum at 147

    And he weighed more for his 154 debut, his 4th weight class, than his career 154 opponent did and as he had a massive reach advantage over them too

    Terence Crawford 74'' reach

    Postol 73.5''
    Benavidez 73''
    Dulomre 73''
    Jean 72''
    Spence 72''
    Indongo 71.5''
    Egis 71''
    Khan 71''
    Molina 71''
    Burns 70''
    Klimov 69.5''
    Porter 69.5''
    Brook 69''
    Avanesyan 68.5''
    Madrimov 69.5''
    Horn 68''
    Lundy 68''
    Diaz 67''
    Beltran 67''
    Gamboa 65''

    Crawford 149 - Klimov 140
    Crawford 152 - Gamboa 145
    Crawford 153 - Beltran 147
    Crawford 155 - Lundy 151
    Crawford 155 - Jean 155
    Crawford 157 - Postol 152
    Crawford 157 - Diaz 161
    Crawford 169.8 - Madrimov 168.6

    Khan weighed 158 against Clenelo at 155, that's 1lb more than Crawford weighed at 140 against Postol and Diaz

    Career 147 Mean Machine said his fight night weight is 160, just 3lbs more than Crawford weighed at 140 against Postol and Diaz

    As said, Crawford weighed more at 135 against Beltran than career 140 Postol did against him at 140 and he had 5lbs on Postol in the ring

    He weighed more against Postol and Diaz at 140 than career 147 Horn did against him at 147

    Crawford never looks undersized at 147 or in his sole fight at 154 and that's because he isn't and never has been. He's fighting guys roughly his size in his third and fourth weight classes so he has never been small for any weight class he's fought in. He's been massive, very big, big or pretty big at worst in all four weight classes he's fought or campaigned in

    Even Crawford nuthugger Stephen ''Breadman'' Edwards said that he saw no difference in size between Spence and Crawford in the ring. Crawford looked drained at the weigh in too

    And explain to me how someone who has been fighting ''much bigger guys'' weighed just 0.4lbs less for their 154 debut whilst looking very lean than career 160 pounder GGG's average fight weight (and what was GGG's very consistent fight night weight) of 170?

    He weighed more against Madrimov than GGG did against Rosado and Proksa :facepalm:

    Golovkin 168 - Proksa 166

    Golovkin 167 - Rosado ?

    This content is protected
     
    MarkusFlorez99, BoxingIQ and Smoochie like this.
  6. Cafe

    Cafe Sitzpinkler Full Member

    38,328
    7,898
    Sep 2, 2011
    I don't think the American thing is the main reason and it's beside the discussion anyway. It's more so the fact that at those weight classes, weight jumping is totally expected and it's only a few pounds anyway (which most guys fill in naturally).

    Every or well a lot of great welterweights becomes multi division champs, they might not become undisputed but that's also in part due matchmaking and promotional rifs, guys in the past were content to stay in their own lanes. I'd easily take beating a great single name for the lineal than unifying a division against average fighters, it's not collecting of all the belts themselves that matters, it's more so about becoming "the man" relative to the level of talent in the division. And we're kind of used to seeing that in those weight classes.

    Usyk unified a historically great cruiserweight division, yes it's a new division and you can say it's not nearly as great as some historic WW or LW eras, but I look at it from a relative standpoint. What Usyk did feels historically more unprecedented, it set a new higher standard for CWs now that will have to be beat.

    The HW jump IS special as well. in the past 25+ years we've been conditioned to see attempts from smaller guys like Usyk at the HW crown meet ugly reality checks. Even from great amateurs or guys who were great CWs. Usyk shattered that expectation, that again is historically a significant achievement and HW, rightly or wrongly has been seen as being in a good, deep era. I think it's difficult to quantify whether it truly is since we've kind of lost the linearity aspect after Lennox but I think it's fair to say that Crawford's has taken a significant dive in quality, especially due to the timings of his moves.

    I do understand though if you just don't rate current HWs because IDK of the eye test etc. IE AJ losing to some fat looking dude in Ruiz, I actually don't think Ruiz is a joke, dude has crazy hand speed and power. Nor do I penalize losses that much, he lost, avenged that loss (it's Ruiz own fault if he didn't take the rematch seriously) - the rest of AJ's resume doesn't get erased because of that.
     
  7. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

    80,249
    131,512
    Jul 21, 2009
    Crawford's best wins in 41 fights are

    And these clowns have the audacity to talk about ''weak eras''? :facepalm:


    Post-car crash 140 leprechaun slayer Spence

    Pity Pat Postol whose claim to fame is beating a damaged goods Lucas on a freak eye injury who had been involved in 3 brutal wars in 4 of his previous fights all against punchers or huge punchers

    Postol was dropped x 2 in his very next fight after Crawford spent the entire duration of he 12 rounds, sans 2 flash KDs one of which was a rabbit punch, on his bike stinking out the joint and inflicting minimal damage against the 5lb lighter light hitting Postol.

    This 13 fight novice no one had heard of had Postol on the verge of a KO loss because Postol was staggering around on Bambi legs in desperate trouble when he hauled his ass back off the canvas

    And Postol lost to a very green 12-0 Josh Taylor in his very next fight, a Taylor who had never fought a prime world class opponent before or been past 9 rounds

    A way smaller blown up 126/130 pounder in Gamboa who Crawford had 7lbs on and a 9'' reach advantage over. Gamboa's form at 135, including in his previous fight at the weight, his only fight at the weight, where he laboured to a 12 UD against a fighter the light hitting KO 37% Anthony Crolla KO'd in 5 a few years later, is terrible. He was very chinny against fighters his own size at his natural weight for goodness sake, let alone massive 135 pounders

    Porter who was coming off double hip replacement surgery and never fought again

    Ricky Burns who would've been 0-2 in his previous 2 fights if not for corruption and extreme good fortune because one was a clear robbery and he was well down on all three judges cards (87-84 x 3) after 9 rounds in his hometown against Jose A Gonzalez who was boxing his ears off prior to suffering a freak wrist/arm injury and having to pull out

    And 11 fight pro novice Madrimov who had literally never fought a prime world class fighter before and many had him losing that fight despite Madrimov's lack of pro experience against world class opponents, him making a massive leap up in class from fringe world level to elite top 5 P4P level, and it being in Crawford's country on a deck heavily stacked against him with a home ref and three home judges despite Madrimov being the champion not Crawford

    Why zero pressure on Crawford to rematch the same size/much shorter reach Madrimov when the fight was highly controversial and many had Madrimov winning and when Madrimov was the champ, who brought his belt to Crawford's country, and fought him on a deck which was heavily stacked against him?

    But Usyk has to beat these way bigger giants, and savage punching giants, who hold huge/obscene physical advantages over him x 2 on a deck stacked against him after clearly beating them the first time round? Crawford tucked tail and said thank you for your belt Madrimov I don't want no part of you again

    GTHOH

    Crawford has had 41 fights, 40 in the US, has had North American refs for all his fights, a scandalous amount of home judges, often a full set of three, and I mean even vs foreigners in world title fights, has barely fought any legit punchers his size (Madrimov and Mean Machine are 2 of the only ones I can think of and Mean Machine dropped him), has very often been the much bigger man, the bigger man, rarely the smaller, and if ever much or way smaller, has never been at a reach disadvantage in any of his world title fights, let alone a big or huge one

    In other words the complete antithesis of Usyk and what Usyk has been doing and if the roles were reversed no one would have Usyk ranked above him and everyone knows it even if it kills them to admit it

    Imagine Madrimov weighed 15-55lbs more than Crawford with a huge reach advantage and they fought in Uzbekistan with home refs and judges. Judges which wouldn't have been needed because even a 10lb heavier Madrimov knocks his ass smooth out, let alone one that much bigger

    If Crawford ran the gauntlet of murderous punchers and legit bangers like Usyk has: AJ, Dubois, Gassiev, Briedis, Glowacki, Bellew, Chisora, Huck, Hunter, and yes Belly can punch hard and obviously power is magnified when you're facing much bigger opponents, let alone a whole bunch way bigger than him, all in their backyards or on the road he would've been knocked out many times and dropped even more.

    Hell, tiny Gamboa had him in desperate trouble and had him a punch away from a KO defeat and his KO% at 135 is abysmal

    And Mean Machine dropped him and hurt him, who again is one of only 2 or maybe 3 at a push legit punchers his size he's ever fought

    Crawford is an excellent fighter but his resume for a 41 fight vet and P4P top 5 star IS weak

    He HAS barely fought any legit punchers his size

    His CV IS full of featherfists and average puncherS

    He HAS often been the much or bigger man

    He HAS rarely been the smaller man

    He HASN'T if ever been much or way smaller

    He HAS only fought outside his home country once in 41 fights

    He HAS never been at a reach advantage in any of his world title fights

    And all the world champions he has beaten sans Burns HAD to bring their world titles to his backyard/country (the foreigners) even when they were champs not him and fight him on a deck stacked in his favour. Usyk won 7/8 of his in his opponent's backyards and the 8th one on the road

    And it IS comical and very disingenuous to try and act like what he has been doing compares to what Usyk has and routinely is

    They're doing two very different things and one is obviously way harder and more impressive

    But the Crawford fans constantly try to gaslight us into believing the complete inverse of that :facepalm:
     
  8. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,727
    3,934
    Jun 13, 2012
    Crawford wasn't a natural Lightweight. He practically killed himself to make the weight.
     
    Smoochie likes this.
  9. African Cobra

    African Cobra The Right Honourable Lord President of the Council banned Full Member

    27,342
    10,121
    May 29, 2007
    Bro we should not be trying to diminish both Usyk and Crawford. All these gentlemen can do is beat the best of their era. You will notice my boy EJ has never used the accidents etc to blame for his loss against Bud because he knows that is BS. He felt he could give Bud an asskicking like he did to others. I have also noticed that both Usyk and Bud have mad respect for each other. Honestly I cannot help like both of them.
     
  10. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

    80,249
    131,512
    Jul 21, 2009
    I'm responding to people trying to diminish Usyk with comical claims he beat ''damaged' opponents and the irony of this coming from Crawford fans of all people couldn't be more priceless


    I like both and rate both very highly too. But the truth is what he and Usyk have been doing, as said, is very different and one is much more difficult and impressive than the other and to act like it isn't is very disingenuous.

    Usyk is the rightful P4P king

    The greatest fighter of his generation

    And what he has done, the way he has gone about doing it, and achieved in just 23 fights is unprecedented

    And he has earned it the hard way whilst being the B-Side on a deck stacked against him

    Winning and unifying all his belts in his opponent's backyards or the last one on the road

    Never having home advantage in any of his world title fights

    Whilst giving away huge/obscene physical advantages up at HW and the elite giants of today are fast, athletic, skilful and coordinated

    Winning and becoming undisputed at that weight class when he was already past his prime before he won his first belt up there

    And having run a gauntlet of murderous punchers and legit bangers, literally and in the P4P sense a bunch of the sport's biggest punchers

    Whilst never having been badly hurt, let alone dropped (low blow doesn't count)

    And he has achieved it via the application of pure skill and zero dirty tactics and fouling

    Zero deck-stacking

    Zero ducking

    Zero ducking certain styles or punchers

    Whilst being the epitome of class and humility and being respectful to both his opponents even when they categorically do not deserve it and have been very disrespectful towards him and treated him like crap at the negotiating table, and the media and fans alike


    There's no shame in being #2 or #3 behind him
     
  11. LenHarvey

    LenHarvey Active Member Full Member

    697
    1,144
    Oct 8, 2024
    170lbs v Madrimov wtf :lol:.. what is it with these grifters in the lower divisions.. how do they get a pass and get passed off as some p4p marvel? Haney, Crawford, Lopez... it's a con trick.. makes a mockery of the divisions & makes the pound for pound debate even more flaky.. Crawford aint no p4p #1.. & we can surmise too that Crawfords probably a good 185lbs in between camps then if hes in the ring at 170 .. the guy basically weighs the same as Rocky Marciano LMAO.. imagine someone like Lomachenko walking around 40/50lbs above his actual fighting weights! Hed get laughed out of the sport!
     
    Smoochie and Serge like this.
  12. VG_Addict

    VG_Addict Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    23,727
    3,934
    Jun 13, 2012
    Crawford's resume isn't that bad. He's fought nothing but champions and top contenders since 2014.

    You can only beat who's put in front of you, and so far, he's beaten everyone put in front of him, almost all of them decisively.
     
  13. Serge

    Serge Ginger Dracula Staff Member

    80,249
    131,512
    Jul 21, 2009
    It's comical

    Crapping on fighters who are tiny for their divisions and are routinely facing opponents and big punchers/KO artists who are much or way heavier than them with big/huge reach advantages in their backyards or on the road

    Whilst they blow industrial levels of smoke up the asses of fighters are massive or huge for their weight classes and when they do move up in weight, in complete contrast to the fighters they crap on, they're still much or bigger than their opponents or at worst roughly the same size at in their third or fourth weight class, and are fighting at home all or damn near all the time on a deck stacked in their favour and have barely fought any KO artists or legit punchers their size :facepalm:

    Of course it's much easier to be more ''dominant'' when they're doing the later
     
    LenHarvey likes this.
  14. Mr Applebee

    Mr Applebee Active Member Full Member

    1,360
    668
    Nov 26, 2010
    I think Spence was perceived as his best opponent to date at the time, but in reality I don't think it’s the case. I think Porter is his best opponent (I’m in the camp that says Spence was affected by the crash) and he did well to come back in that fight with a great stoppage when he might have been behind on the cards. Will be interesting to see what Madrimov goes on to do, as that win could age nicely.

    In all honesty I think Crawford is clearly a good fighter, but I do think he gets more credit than he deserves when you consider his opponents. He's had a pretty easy roster of opponents since beating Ricky Burns in 2014. When you’re left debating between Spence (post crash), Porter (half an hour from retirement) and Madrimov (we don’t even know how good he is yet) being his best opponent…..it says a lot.
     
  15. Bigplatts

    Bigplatts Member Full Member

    183
    356
    Aug 20, 2024
    'Crawford's talents and achievements are obvious'. All that seems obvious to me is that he is a big guy who always fights smaller fighters. His greatest talent is being able to rehydrate so much weight without being drained. Whether you think 'weight bullying' is a thing or not (which is a totally legit debate) it still takes away from the claim that he wins purely because he is the better boxer. Usyk, Canelo, Inoue and many others regularly beat opponents who have significant weight and reach advantages over them. Crawford has never fought anyone who had either advantage. There have been fights, like the Porter fight, where he was clearly losing but then got the knockout, and people go on about his skills, when to me that is just a guy knocking out someone who is much smaller than him.
     
    Smoochie and LenHarvey like this.