Is Dempsey the No.1 h2h Heavyweight

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BlackCloud, Oct 30, 2020.


Is Dempsey No.1 h2h?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%

  2. No

    31 vote(s)
    83.8%
Page 1 of 3
  1. BlackCloud

    BlackCloud I detest the daily heavyweight threads Full Member

    3,201
    3,373
    Nov 22, 2012
    As per the Marciano thread.

    Is he or isn't he?
     
    BlackCloud, Oct 30, 2020
    BlackCloud, Oct 30, 2020
    #1
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,065
    Mar 21, 2007
    We could do with Usyk getting on with his stab at heavyweights. He's much bigger than someone like Dempsey, of course, but it's still interesting to see how a natural 200lb man is going to do against a the best in a heavyweight division dominated by big, big men now.
     
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2020
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2020
    #2
    BCS8, BlackCloud and George Crowcroft like this.
  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

    27,131
    44,901
    Mar 3, 2019
    No, top ten is arguable but extremely unlikely.

    Number one is ridiculous.
     
    George Crowcroft, Oct 30, 2020
    George Crowcroft, Oct 30, 2020
    #3
    PhillyPhan69, Johnny_B, Toney F*** U and 2 others like this.
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,579
    27,230
    Feb 15, 2006
    It is just about possible theoretically.

    It would be easier to argue his case than Marciano's in this respect.

    However, making the claim would require extraordinary evidence, and the evidence that we have does not meet that watermark.
     
    janitor, Oct 30, 2020
    janitor, Oct 30, 2020
    #4
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, swagdelfadeel, mr. magoo and 3 others like this.
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,065
    Mar 21, 2007
    To be fair, nobody does really. There's no way to produce data that will "prove" one or the other of these is the number one head to head, it's speculation on anybody's part at heavyweight more than any other division probably.

    The main names would be Muhammad Ali, who never fought really good super-heavies, Lennox Lewis, who was twice destroyed by punchers of only good skill, and one or two others, each as flawed as the other. You can present devastating arguments against any claimant, really.
     
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2020
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2020
    #5
    BitPlayerVesti, BCS8 and George Crowcroft like this.
  6. Oddone

    Oddone Bermane Stiverne's life coach. Full Member

    6,162
    13,463
    Aug 18, 2019
    6’1”. 193lbs. 73 inch reach. Head to head he is at an extreme physical disadvantage over say Lennox Lewis: 6’5” 247lbs. 84 inch reach.

    I love Dempsey but sometimes, just sometimes skill, rage, heart, determination and will combined with courage and guts only gets you beaten worse.

    No. Just No.
     
    Oddone, Oct 30, 2020
    Oddone, Oct 30, 2020
    #6
    mrkoolkevin, Johnny_B, Glass City Cobra and 2 others like this.
  7. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,470
    9,485
    Oct 22, 2015
    I can think of at least 10 Heavyweight champs that ko him early.
    So no he isn't a great head to head match-up. Not even close.
     
    Flash24, Oct 30, 2020
    Flash24, Oct 30, 2020
    #7
    mrkoolkevin, Johnny_B and Toney F*** U like this.
  8. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

    60,682
    80,947
    Aug 21, 2012
    Good post
     
    BCS8, Oct 30, 2020
    BCS8, Oct 30, 2020
    #8
  9. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,187
    1,302
    Mar 20, 2013
    Probably more so than any other heavyweight to be considered... Greatest peak fighter ever
    Its unfortunate the lack of boxing knowledge and history here except for rare exceptions
     
    louis54, Oct 30, 2020
    louis54, Oct 30, 2020
    #9
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent, The Morlocks and robert ungurean like this.
  10. Richmondpete

    Richmondpete Real fighters do road work Full Member

    7,140
    5,026
    Oct 22, 2015
    Yeah you certainly appear to know what your talking about
     
    Richmondpete, Oct 30, 2020
    Richmondpete, Oct 30, 2020
    #10
    swagdelfadeel, George Crowcroft and BlackCloud like this.
  11. louis54

    louis54 Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,187
    1,302
    Mar 20, 2013
    Very unfortunate
     
    louis54, Oct 30, 2020
    louis54, Oct 30, 2020
    #11
    reznick likes this.
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,579
    27,230
    Feb 15, 2006
    I think that you could make a very strong case for Joe Louis, or Muhammad Ali, based upon their real world accomplishments.

    Their depth of success against elite opponents, of every kind imaginable, proves that they were exceptionally difficult men to beat.

    They just kept beating the odds, where other all time greats didn't.

    This does not mean that they would have necessarily beaten Jack Dempsey, or Lennox Lewis, but they probably would have got better results vs the same dozen opponents.

    I would make that claim!
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2020
    janitor, Oct 30, 2020
    janitor, Oct 30, 2020
    #12
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,986
    48,065
    Mar 21, 2007
    I would suggest that they could very easily lose to Vitali, Wladimir, Lennox Lewis and even someone like Tyson Fury (and if not he, the next one...or the next one...). Those boys just don't have experience against guys who are 6'5 250lbs. Fighters who were both of those things were so rare in their respective eras and there were basically zero world class fighters.

    If we take someone like Ali and line him up with someone like Wlad, he's listed as three inches shorter, three inches shorter in reach (a bad combo) and outweighte prime for prime by more than 30lbs. Those are all dramatic weight-class type advantages. These guys could just walk cruiserweight sized fighters down, I think.

    That means your ATG h2h probably comes from this bigger group but Lewis can be KO'd, Vitali never proved himself against truly elite (elite elite) opposition and Wladimir had chin and stamina problems that made aspects of generalship so key.

    In the end, nothing you say is silly, but it's all very opposable.
     
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2020
    McGrain, Oct 30, 2020
    #13
    mrkoolkevin likes this.
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,579
    27,230
    Feb 15, 2006
    Let's say that they could.

    Would they have lost to the worst men that beat those men?

    Would they have done better against the available opposition in the same era?

    Those kind of matches are a bit easier to call IMHO.
     
    janitor, Oct 30, 2020
    janitor, Oct 30, 2020
    #14
    reznick likes this.
  15. Greb & Papke 707

    Greb & Papke 707 Active Member Full Member

    649
    639
    Apr 9, 2019
    No, I don’t think so, now I tend to rate a prime Dempsey alittle higher than most, but I highly doubt he’d be no 1 H2H, but styles make fights man, I’d give Dempsey a better shot at the Klit brothers than Louis or Ali because Dempsey was the Giant Slayer, but Louis and Ali would probably ruin Dempsey in the ring... so who knows.. sorry for being absolutely no help at all lol
     
    Greb & Papke 707, Oct 30, 2020
    Greb & Papke 707, Oct 30, 2020
    #15
    BoxingFanOfIranianDescent likes this.
Page 1 of 3