Is Dempsey/Willard the Most Overrated Victory Ever?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Seamus, Dec 21, 2011.


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  1. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    In pure boxing terms, how much credence should be given to beating that version of Willard? Big Jess was a hack amateur who had a history of losing to small fighters and a paper-thin resume. He hadn't fought competitively in three years, was a not-spry 37 years old, and was in dubious shape. Stylistically, Dempsey was his kryptonite, and was without argument at his absolute zenith.

    The timing of the fight, July 4, 1919, uniquely coincided with the emergence of the US as a power player on the world stage, having chipped in on the completion of the Great War and with Wilson orchestrating (disastrously so) post-War diplomacy. It was the birth of the Roaring 20's and Dempsey was as much adopted to fit the age as he had conquered it. In short, he was in the right place at the right time. And consequently, has this fight has grown in retrospect to be more than it actually was? Purely in boxing terms, of course.
     
    Seamus, Dec 21, 2011
    Seamus, Dec 21, 2011
    #1
  2. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I agree, but seamus, it's the reason people like Burt think Dempsey can beat any HW that ever lived...
     
    KuRuPT, Dec 21, 2011
    KuRuPT, Dec 21, 2011
    #2
  3. ticar

    ticar Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    i love when dempsey fans say "size doesn't matter" in addition like dempsey could ko lewis,bowe or klits,yet they glorife a win over willard because he's big:lol:
     
    ticar, Dec 21, 2011
    ticar, Dec 21, 2011
    #3
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I don't know how much it's overated actually. I think that most people accept that Willard was pretty shitty. But Dempsey looks so good dismantling him that they can cross the streams a bit.
     
    McGrain, Dec 21, 2011
    McGrain, Dec 21, 2011
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  5. MURK20

    MURK20 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I agree too, but Burt makes great arguments and is entitled.
     
    MURK20, Dec 21, 2011
    MURK20, Dec 21, 2011
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  6. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Dempsey was my first love in boxing. I devoured everything I could read about him. I think he still may be my favorite fighter ever... along with Duran.

    Burt's arguments are essentially correct when historic perspective is narrowed. Observers of Dempsey's era really did think he was a phenom without precedent, their opinions casting a long shadow into the future. However, most of these folks did not have the benefit of seeing how the heavyweight division evolved, and if they were alive, their opinions seem rather rose-tinted toward their heyday.

    The Toledo match of 1919 was a watershed moment that transcended sport and impacted popular culture, initiating the transformation of sport into the spectacle it has since become. In pure boxing perspective, I think it may have been more of a simple "cleaning out" process, dispatching an old, lazy champion and ushering in a new exciting era... and however well that promise was realized is another subject.
     
    Seamus, Dec 21, 2011
    Seamus, Dec 21, 2011
    #6
  7. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not really....his performance is highly rated, not his win.....
     
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Dec 21, 2011
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Dec 21, 2011
    #7
  8. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Janitard, Derp Derpstock, Shitnose, Borelocks and co. will tell you that size does not matter at all and if anything, it is a disadvantage....then on the same note use this fight to raise Dempsey to God status for overcoming the size difference between him and 37 yeard old, 3 years retired farmhand Williard.

    With viceral hatred and a reverse-racist undertone, i see this as a contradiction
     
    Pachilles, Dec 21, 2011
    Pachilles, Dec 21, 2011
    #8
  9. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    I think this is true, for the non-Dempsey fanatics, at least.
     
    Boxed Ears, Dec 21, 2011
    Boxed Ears, Dec 21, 2011
    #9
  10. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    How great is chopping down a soft, old cowhand, then standing over him, inches away and defenseless, and hitting him as he struggles to raise himself?

    And with all those free shots against a defenseless target, you can't put him away until he quits after 2 rounds later.
     
    Seamus, Dec 21, 2011
    Seamus, Dec 21, 2011
    #10
  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    When is the last time that you saw any challenger in any weight class, dismantle a reigning lineal champion so decisivley?

    I don't care how bad he was to start with, how old, how inactive etc. When was the last time?

    Then factor in the fact that the challenger was giving up 60 lbs! I bet that most of the examples you were actualy able to come up with, were cases when the champion was from a lower weight class.

    Most over rated victory ever?

    Obviously not on this forum.
     
    janitor, Dec 21, 2011
    janitor, Dec 21, 2011
    #11
  12. ticar

    ticar Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    yea,but giving up 60 lbs against modern shw's doesn't matter,because size is overrated and means little to nothing,except when you beat up a big slow unskilled farm boy,than that's an atg perfomance
     
    ticar, Dec 21, 2011
    ticar, Dec 21, 2011
    #12
  13. MURK20

    MURK20 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yes. It was one of the most savage beatings on film.
     
    MURK20, Dec 21, 2011
    MURK20, Dec 21, 2011
    #13
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    The only people who have ever said this, are the people who argue in favour of bigger heavyweights in historic match ups, when they seek to clumsily satirise their opponents.

    The same people will argue that modern superheavyweights would have beaten Jack Dempsey because they were bigger, then when it is pointed out that he beat a lineal world champion of the same size, they will try to find a reason why that didn't don't count!

    "He was just a farm hand" (despite the fact that he was the lineal champion).

    "He was a big bar room brawler" (despite the fact that his training regime, puts Sam Peter or Ruslan Chagaev to shame)

    They will even search his body trying to find features to pick up upon "he had big love handles".

    This is the single least honest argument, that you will find in the debate about how champions from different eras would have matched up, and this thread is a bad example of it!
     
    janitor, Dec 21, 2011
    janitor, Dec 21, 2011
    #14
  15. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I feel like it's feeding time at the zoo, and I'm the main meal. What a load of baloney
    and misdirection is aimed at me...I have been accused by posters above who claim that I cite "that size doesn't count that much " and then I cite That Dempsey kod a 60 pound
    heavier Jess Willard in 1919 as example of Dempsey's great punching powers. A
    contradiction on my part. ? NAY, but poster after poster have stated,time after time, that Jack Dempsey was TOO small for today's modern heavyweights,anf little ole Dempsey would be squashed by the Liston's, Foreman, etc. Lil ole Dempsey and Joe
    Louis were too itty bitty small for todays 15 round marathon heavyweights... So to respond to such outlandish allegations, I cited that the razor sharp Dempsey kod the 60 pound heavier Jess Willard, though not great, was NEVER on the canvas before in his life...NEVER, and little Jack dropped Willard SEVEN times in the first round. Dempsey also flattened giants as Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, awkward but bullish Luis Angel Firpo,all 215 and up heavyweights. So ,I was responding to posters who dismiss the Manassa Mauler as too SMALL for the modern heavyweights,and I correctly show that his RECORD proves otherwise...It is my attackers who glorify weight advantage over ability, and as I
    rightly show a Jack Dempsey, a Joe Louis, a Sam Langford have proved for a great heavyweight, their speed and power can overcome the bigger dreadnaughts...
    P.S. Jess Willard was never a great fighter but he always had enormous strength and an
    iron chin. Witness how Jack Johnson bounced punches off Willards chin for TWENTY FIVE rounds in a blazing sun in Havana and big Jess shook all those blows off.
     
    burt bienstock, Dec 21, 2011
    burt bienstock, Dec 21, 2011
    #15
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