is Duran overrated as a lightweight? quality of opposition?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Aug 4, 2017.


  1. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    63-1 as a lightweight. Skill level of an ultra elite. Wins over many top names of his time at that weight. Successfully moving to welterweight and winning that championship. Very few fighters in boxing history had the skills of prime Duran. Above welterweight Duran was way above his prime weight class and an older, slower and more shop worn fighter.
     
  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    At lightweight, and let's make that 140 to be super ultra generous, his resume is lacking.

    People need to check out the resumes of Ike Williams, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Tony Canzoneri, etc. at a corresponding weight. Those guys, and others, had lots of wins over fellow ATGs around that weight.
    A guy like Billy Petrolle never even won the title but has a resume you'd hold up against Duran's.
    Duran might have been an "old school" fighter for the color TV crowd but those golden age fighters had some serious wins on their records at lightweight.
     
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  3. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    None of those fighters had the skills of prime Duran. Great fighters yes but a cut below Duran in overall ability. Durans one punch KO power in both fists, never ending stamina, speed, killer instinct and great boxing ability are unmatched. He beat a who's who of lightweight contenders from his time period. Watch his win over highly regarded Thompson. Duran outboxed wore down and then leveled the challenger. A phd level technical performance.
     
  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    He was great.
    I think some of those others were arguably as great. Certainly I think the likes of Benny Leonard and Ike Williams matched him in skills.

    But I doubt you lived through the Benny Leonard era.
     
  5. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Then of course the obvious question is to please name all the historians that rate those lightweights over Duran at that weight class. Typically Duran is either 1 or 2.
     
  6. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not in terms of ability.
     
  7. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The other issue and I see it time and time again on these boards is blatant revisionism. Those that live through the era could tell you how highly thought of many of Durans challengers were. Those that did not live through that time just sit and look at paper records unknowing of the expert thought of that time. Duran is rated as highly as he is for a reason. Incomparable ability is one and his dominance at lightweight and success as a welterweight is another.
     
  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I think that's been covered before. I have a feeling an author called Mike Silver wrote something about it.
    Cus D'amato, for example, had 10 old time lightweights ranked ahead of Duran, with 7 or 8 of them firm picks to beat him. Other old school guys had some reservations or similar lists too, Chris Dundee for example didn't rate Duran as comparable to the lightweights of greater eras.
    These guys might have just been nostalgic old fools but there's a lot of substance in the actual records of these fighters, and footage of some of them shows them to be extremely great fighters.

    In my opinion, Duran's well in the conversation but #1 or #2 all time lightweight seems a generous option rather than a proven necessity.
     
  9. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Agreed. The vast majority with few exceptions have Duran ahead of the fighters you mentioned. Leonard and Gans being the primary competition. Your opinion is within the vast minority.
     
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Just one example here.

    LOU AMBERS

    beat (among others), at lightweight or within a couple of pounds of it :

    Henry Armstrong
    Tony Canzoneri x2
    Pedro Montanez
    Sammy Fuller
    Fritzie Zivic
    Baby Arizmendi x2
    Cocoa Kid



    ..... that's an impresive resume, and Ambers' resume is probably thinner by some way than some of the other greats.

    I'm not yet convinced Duran has quality of resume at lightweight.
     
  11. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Duran the much more highly skilled fighter than Ambers.

    Most of Durans bouts at lightweight were highly anticipated.
     
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I don't know about vast majorities and "vast minorities", but if you're talking about consensus opinion on one hand, it makes little sense to say experts in the 1970s Duran era knew his competition was very good or great, since very little of that opinion remains in the consensus.
    It seems to have been forgotten - or was esoteric knowledge to begin with.
    I'm not saying they were all bad challengers but overall it is an underwhelming bunch.

    Most guys who rate Duran number 1 just seem to be repeating the mantra "Duran is the greatest" when you ask them details about his lightweight opponents.

    A couple of posters on this thread offered some insight on the point in question and that's appreciated.
    But when so many are answering by repeating the mantra "Duran is the number 1" or talking about his skills, then does nothing to install confidence in the question about quality of opposition.
    In fact, it seems as if there's generally a lack of knowledge or any confidence in the quality of his opposition.

    As I said before, in most divisions this wouldn't be much of an issue but lightweight has so often been full of ATGs facing other ATGs. That's where Duran takes a bit of a hit, in my opinion.
     
  13. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    How many of those lightweights are very well known today?
     
  14. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Err, just what "elite" wins do Mayweather or Sweet Pea have at 135? Castillo? Ramirez? Buchanan was better than both of them. Now, I consider Azumah Nelson an atg, but certainly not at lightweight. Duran's resume is better than both of theirs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
  15. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You are correct about those old school fellows, 100%. But none of them moved up to welter and beat a great 147 pounder on the level of Leonard. But then again, this thread is about Duran's resume at 135.