Is Evander Holyfield one of the all-time top 10 heavyweights?

How on earth do you have Sonny Liston at #4? Jeffries at #6? No Dempsey? :huh

Liston had what 1 title defense?

 

this is a pretty cool rating system

 

That's a pretty sorry list. Guys like Tunney and Charles shouldn't be anywhere near the top 10, regardless of what Bert Sugar says. There's no justification for that. And Charles above Marciano is just outright comical.

 

Most of Liston's best work was done pre title shot. He was a noticeably better fighter in the late 50's than when he faced the likes of Ali (the second fight being a dive anyway) and Patterson. When taking ability into account he deserves a high ranking, though I personally wouldn't have him that high.

 

I voted "No", but thinking about it right now, it was an impulse vote. I'm not sure exactly and should have thought about it more, but my initial reaction is that he is not. Still need time to think about it.

 

Exactly. As this poll demonstrates, Holyfield is VERY underrated. He's not just a top ten HW, he's a no-doubt-about it top ten HW, best since Holmes.:yep

 

That "bum" would've KO'd most of the guys on your list.

 

He'd certainly make everyone's top 15 list, but 10? Unfortunately I have him just outside of 10, either 11th or 12th. No shame in that, he was a great warrior.

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Dempsey
Johnson
Marciano
Liston
Frazier

Tyson
Holyfield

 

Every good fighter he faced? He cleaned out the Heavyweight division and unified the titles in under a year, absolutely dominating everyone in his path, regardless of style, in the process. It wasn't until King took over and Rooney was ousted that Tyson started to fall apart out of the ring, which also lead to his decline in the ring (from a technical standpoint as well, without Rooney, Tyson went from being a brilliant bob and weave punch picking/combination throwing monster to a head hunter and brawler). Tyson was brilliant in his short peak. If you can't see the vast differences in the skills and style between a young Tyson ('88 and prior, before the departure of Rooney and King's involvement) and a 90's version, you simply don't know what you're watching.

To get a few examples of the "good fighters" he faced, just read through his title reign. He dominated the likes of Larry Holmes (though a past prime version), Michael Spinks (same), Frank Bruno, Tony Tucker, Carl Williams, Tony Tubbs, Pinklon Thomas, Tyrell Biggs, Trevor Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, etc.

Obviously not names (aside from the first two who were past prime) on the level of guys like Holyfield and Lewis, whom he missed out on in his prime due to factors such as the Douglas loss and his jail sentence, but still quality fighters, better than the majority of the HW's around today outside of maybe the Klits.

As for my top 15 HW's, I have no official list, but off the top of the head I'd include, in no precise order, but basically as follows:

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Marciano
Johnson
Dempsey
Frazier
Liston
Tyson
Holyfield
Jeffries
Walcott
Patterson/Bowe

 

Just to clarify this isn't actually Monte's order of fighters. He has Foreman ahead of Lewis for example and claims wrongly in my opinion, that Foreman would dispense of Lewis rather quickly. Having said that, I have a lot of respect for Cox and his website and I've read most of his articles. Very knowledgable guy.

His actually list taken from his website is below

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. George Foreman
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Sonny Liston
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Mike Tyson
11. Rocky Marciano
12. Joe Frazier
13. Riddick Bowe
14. Evander Holyfield
15. Sam Langford
16. Gene Tunney
17. James J. Corbett
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. Max Schmeling

I personally have a hard time putting Jeffries anywhere near the top 10 considering he had a total of about 21 fights but that's a different topic.

 

Your point? A P4P list and a HW list are two completely different things, especially when dealing with a natural LHW who started his career at MW and accomplished the vast majority of his best work at lower weights, not HW. Educate yourself before trying to call me out on some nonsense like that.

 

:huh Did I not just explain that?

I rate Charles FAR ahead of Marciano P4P. In fact, Charles is arguably one of the 5 greatest fighters of all time in that sense, something you wouldn't know as you're obviously not very well versed or educated. But at HW he was past his prime and never even the best of his time, much less one of the 10 best of all time. His work at HW adds to his P4P legacy, but in no way was he one of the 10 best HW's of all time, not on ability or resume. #1 LHW of all time, yes.

Do you comprehend any of this yet, or are you too stubborn to admit you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about?

 

Based on a combination of achievement, skill, h2h, resume, and other intangibles:

(It's difficult to compare John L with Vitali. The sport has changed a lot in the past century or more. For this reason, I have picked an arbitrary dividing line between old and modern. My list only goes back to Joe Louis' time).


1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis/Foreman

5. Marciano/Holmes

7. Liston
8. Tyson
9. Frazier
10. Patterson

 

I'm a little surprised, I assumed more people would have him in their top ten.

On the other hand...being 'just' in the top fifteen or twenty heavyweights in the history of the division is hardly insulting, is it?

 

If there was a ref in here he'd stop the fight, you are making a complete fool of yourself! You're posting things about Sweet Pea that prove his side of the argument - not yours!!