Is George Foreman the most overrated boxer in history?

I think you're pretty spot on.

 

No I would say Tyson is more overrated.Did Tyson ever beat anyone as good as a prime Frazier?

 

Dinamita, are you OK? I think you spelled Joe Calzaghe incorrectly. Its J-O-E C-A....

 

:roll:

 

:think Well did he ?

 

I don't think George Foreman is necesarily a top 5 heavyweight, but he was undoubtedly great. Your post on him is not a balanced one searching to find his rightful spot but rather comes of as an attack looking to place him as low as you possibly can.

Knocked out undefeated Joe Frazier in two rounds. Beaten by Ali and by Jimmy Young while depressed. Proves he can deal with adversity in the ring against Lyle. Comes back after a 20-year lay-off at age 45 and goes the distance with Holyfield. Wins against undefeated Michael Moorer to become the oldest heavyweight champion ever, thereby forever burying the argument of older era fighters being unable to compete with current athletes.

Seems like a pretty unique package.

 

I don't think very many rate him as a top 5 personally, but there are plenty who have him in thier top 10 and rightfully so for the following reasons.

1. Two time lineal champion who won the title for the first and second times by beating two unbeaten lineal champions in their primes.

2. Olympic gold medalist.

3. Highest win/Ko ratio of any heavyweight champ in history

4. Oldest fighter to ever recapture the heavyweight crown.

5. Was stopped only once in 81 pro fights, by the concencus best boxer in history and more due to stamina issues rather than a chin problem

Agree.

Disagree

Returning to the ring after a 10 year layoff at the age of 39 to embark on another 10 year career consisting of a record of 31-3-0-26 and a world lineal title is more than enough in my book.

Well lets think about this. He utterly anialated a solid top contender in a mere two rounds - something that no one had done to him before, nor would do again for at least another 5 years when the man was well past his best. Prior to the Foreman fight, Norton had compiled a pro record of 30-2-0-23, and had recently boxed a combined 24 rounds with Muhammad Ali - one fight resulting in victory, while the other ended in a split decision loss. Following the Foreman fight, Norton would go on a 4 year streak winning 11 of his next 13 fights, beating Jerry Quarry, Boone Kirkman, Jimmy Young, and Duane Bobick and losing in a highly contested decision to Muhammad Ali, plus giving a peak Larry Holmes the fight of his career. When taken into context what Norton did prior to the Foreman fight as well as following this match, its reasonable to conclude that George convincingly destroyed a solid competitor who well may have been in the peak of his prime.

As you already said, Norton was well past his best when he fought two punchers who were known as fast starters, and one of whom commonly makes the top of a lot of people's hardest hitter list. As for the early loss to Luis Garcia, you're talking about a single match that a guy lost within his first 16 fights, and who incidently avenged at a later stage in his career when he was obviously far improved. If we held every loss that came early in fighter's boxing careers against them, then what would men like Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Harry Wills, Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles be considered in the grand scheme of things ? Bare in mind, we're only talking about ONE LOSS on Norton's record as a prospect. Some of these other guys had multiple, and some that even went unavenged.

Foreman was coming off of a humiliating loss against Muhammad Ali - a fight that he was a 3-1 favorite to win. He then took FIFTEEN MONTHS off before returning to face the Ring's #5 rated Ron Lyle. Nevertheless, this was a fight that Foreman rose off the canvas in the heat of adversity to win in what would later become recognized as a classic fight. Lewis coming off of a 25 fight winning streak with no layoff in between fights, nor a mind boggling loss to contend with. All this, and he LOST the fight, whereas George came back to win and under more adverse circumstances. As for Lewis never being outboxed before, you're absolutely right, however Jimmy Young is thought of by many as one of the best heavyweight boxers of all time. Would you kindly list the number of truly great technicians that Lewis faced?

I think this is a bit oversimplified. The Frazier and Norton wins were a better pair than most champions can claim. Ron Lyle, Goerge Chuvalo, Antonio Peralta, Boone Kirkman, Scott Ledoux and John Dino Denis were not slouches either. Also retiring with a record of 45-2-0-42, with your only losses coming to two all time great boxers, and holding the highest win/KO ratio to boot along with an olympic gold medal is nothing to tread on.

Again there seems to be an agenda to not give credit where credit is due. For starters, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by " Years of mediocrity ". The man returns from a 10 year leave of abscence, comes back at 39 years of age, and weighing close to 300 Lbs, but manages to put together 24 strait wins with 23 Ko's before challenging a peak Evander Holyfield and becoming the first heavyweight to take him 12 rounds. You might say he fought an overabundance of tomato cans, but there were a number of respectable journeyman, trial hoarses, fringe contenders, and prospects on that comeback record too. He also utterly destroyed a lot of guys who were giving younger fighters some problems. Michael Moorer - though a former lightheavyweight, was a 34-0 professional who had just won the lineal title from Evander Holyfield - who in turn had just made history with his rematch with Bowe. Moorer had also won 11 strait heavyweight matches and had tested his chin against the likes of Bert Cooper and Alex Stewart. Also, that lightheavyweight was about 6'3", and weighed 220 lbs. Also, did you see the Shannon Briggs fight? Foreman was something like 49 years of age, and frankly I gave him the fight as did many others.

Well you know what opinions are like, and everyone has one.

 

Just from my experiences on this forum I'd say Tua, Ibeabuchi, Terry Norris, Hector Camacho, James Toney are easily more overrated. I didn't realize anybody rated him top 5 Heavyweight or Top 50 ATG. I've found his rating to be more realistic than that.

 

Well it's either Foreman, Frazier or Ali. They're overrated because of each other. Ali is the greatest because he beat Frazier and Foreman. Frazier is great because he beat Ali. Foreman is great because he beat Frazier.

 

Foreman's not overrated. I think his greatness can be gaged on the general notion that he would be a top contender in any era. Young George Foreman, 1972 - 1974 would be a very tough assignment for every heavyweight prior to 1964 Cassius Clay. Nobody in the history of the sport has more bilateral power than Foreman. Say what you want about Lennox Lewis, Tua, Tyson, Liston and Joe Louis, who were heavy punchers as well. None of those fighters IMO have Foreman's power.

If George didn't retire in 77, I think he and Larry Holmes would have produced some memorable clashes, each probably defeating the other once. George probably beats Mike Weaver, the Tate Bros, Greg Page, and Michael Dokes with relative ease. I'd say Tim Witherspoon and Tony Tubbs probably give him a bit of a scare with their heavy shots.

Who knows what would have happened if George didn't retire and boxed up until the time when Mike Tyson was turning pro. If George continued, I'd say he be a lot more worn out, but not a journeyman challenger for Mike Tyson. This could have been the potential showdown of the mid 80's if George didn't leave boxing so early in his career.

 

I don't think Foreman's the most overrated ever, but I don't think his record is top 10 material.

For me, the number of quality opponents is the most important factor. One great win doesn't make a champion, you have to see the fighter tested against a variety of quality opponents to know what he's made of.

Norton is the perfect example. Let's say he had managed to stay away from the big punchers, his record would look pretty damn good. One would look at his fights against Holmes and Ali, and just conclude that he was active in the wrong era.

Now, Foreman is almost a mirror image. He was extremely succesful against guys that came to him, but was clueless against the elusive boxer type. He didn't beat a single skilled defensive boxer in his entire career! How can that be top 5 material? He's a lot closer to Norton than to Ali and Louis IMO.

 

You forget that Ali also beat Liston and some 30+ ranked contenders. That alone would have him contending for the top spot with Louis.

 

BS. He didn't improve. More than that, he was praised by the Ring as a very promising prospect before the embarassing loss to Garcia. They were wrong, as usual, he was an awkward, but not very clever or skillful boxer with an absolute glass chin.

 

Foreman = top 10 HW