Is George Foreman the most overrated boxer in history?

I would go along with this, I never saw what the differance was between Bowe and greg page - a good fighter also.

At least Bowe won a real world title though, clevland big cat williams never did and he is raved on by some people on this forum for being tall, muscular second stringer. I never understood that one!

 

Spot on about Cleveland Williams.

There was a Ring list of the greatest heavies ever from 1997 (I think) that someone put up on here which had Williams ranked in the low 20's and ahead of Lennox Lewis and Ken Norton amongst others. I can't think of a single win he had that merits such a lofty ranking unless you count KO losses to Liston as some achievement. Even before he was shot he still had dropped numerous fights that someone with his rep should never have lost.

 

The mind boggles...


Williams was a Texas and Miami "house fighter" who spectacularly knocked out journeymen but never beat a single rated fighter.

Jack Bodel beat better fighters. Williams was about as good as Jack O'Halloran.

 

No not really. The Foreman of the 90's fought many of the same guys the young top contenders fought. Think about how much trouble Cooper gave Holyfield. Foreman killed Cooper in 2 easily. Foreman and Bowe both fought Pieree Coetzer and stopped him in the same round. Foreman and Tyson both fought Steve Zouzki and both stopped him. Foreman beat Adilson Rodriguez in the same round that Holyfield did. Only difference is,Foreman was old as hell and those guys were all prime.

 

Prime Foreman only lost to Ali.
" I get a good laugh when boxing people think that all you have to do to beat George Foreman is "box" him. Is that it? Is that all you have to do? Go ask Ali about that one. Those who do hold on to this error and believe that any “clever boxer” type could beat George often give the Jimmy Young fight as an example. Foreman showed up for the Young fight in San Juan the day before the fight and didn’t give himself time to get acclimated to the heat. He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds. The 1973-74 Foreman, the one who cut the ring and really went after his man was the best Foreman. The George who lost to Young never really went after him. The Foreman who fought at a measured pace just was not the real George Foreman."
Foreman had a new trainer and new style after Ali loss. Gil Clancy was responsible for trying to make George into more of a boxer and thus ended the true prime of Foreman. He was prime in 1973-74.

 

And Jimmy Young.

George almost lost to Ron Lyle the one time he beat a world class fighter of a simular size as he was who was in a kick ass mood. He got past one fighter his own size who came to fight?

Foreman only fought Ali, Norton and Lyle who were around his size. Consider that Ali was 32 year old left over fronm another era -and beat him, Lyle was never a world beater and Norton simply did not come to fight and its not quite the super quality opponents people like to say they are.

NO. Foreman also needed hitting back by a guy just as big as he was like what ron Lyle (no world beater) did. Lyle was what 8 years older? The Frazier win is fantastic on paper but who did Foreman meet before then? how many young big guys with winning records?

Had Norton stood up to Foreman a bit more it could have been intresting after 4 rounds but Ken never did have the best chin. Tiger williams, shavers, Quarry, Joe Bugner, mac foster, Larry Holmes might have tested george just as much as Lyle did but we never found out.

So why retire? Is Young a great figter?

says who?? cox? because that is what cox says that it makes him right? who the hell is cox? He only has an opinion. He cant prove anything that stands up anymore than the next guy. In zaire george did all that and lost. Ali was 32 but still big and strong enough to neutralise george... who fought a bad fight.

Top 5 Great fighters prove they are the best in the world and dont get beat in their prime. If they do they come back, rematch the guy like Joe louis and Ali did. Even if Ali refused a rematch why didnt george stay in boxing and chase a fight with Norton, spinks, Tate or Holmes? Remember we are measuring him against elite champions here, he was a great talent but did he do all he could? Didnt Foreman retire because he was too crushed after a just a handfull of competative fights?

It was someone else?

George Foreman was responsible for George Foreman. He was a big strong young guy with the world at his feet - who had been nursed along and given all the breaks.When Foremans career was not going the way he wanted he did not want to know.

 

I'm talking a young Foreman. if anything, George is still underrated tho at times he did look ordinary. But that's how it was with Hagler sometimes he seemed methodical but when on top of their game, you would see sheer devesation

Goerge obliterated whatever stood in front of him whether it be journeymen Vic Scott, Leroy Caldwell, or the champion of the world, going back to 1971 when he cracked the top ten it was always KO1 or KO 2

 

My friend if you cant understand the pluses and minuses of different fighting styles than I cant explain these things to you. George Foreman of the 1970's was a mental case much like Mike Tyson. Look at the first round of Foreman vs Frazier I and look at the first round of the Jimmy Young fight and you will undoubtedly see a big change of style. Styles do in fact make the fights. The Foreman of 1973-1974 was the prime Foreman. Prime has nothing to do with age really. Prime is more mental than anything. It was the same thing in Mike Tyson. Look at Tyson from the Berbick fight and look at him from the Frank Bruno fight and you will see a much different fighter although it was only a few years apart. Foreman was absolutely devastated when he lost to Ali. His confidence was gone. He was mentally in a very bad state and started to question and doubt himself. His new trainer Gil Clancy only reinforced those feelings when he gave Foreman a new fighting style to use. The new style was not a style of a mentally confident fighter but rather the reserved style of an unsure fighter. He lost to Young because of these reasons. Foreman beats Young 9 times out of 10 but on that night Young was mentally tougher and Foreman was mentally weak. Foreman landed some hard shots on Ali in Zaire. You think Young could handle those shots? No Young could not handle those shots!

Foreman retired because he found a religious awakening and the fact that he was rich already. At that time he had no need to continue fighting.

And the Frazier win was actually more special BECASUE George hadnt fought many guys that tested him. Basically he came in off the streets with his crude style and killed the world heavyweight champion. Who else could do it?

And Foreman did comeback and in a big way. He fought many of the same opponents that Bowe,Tyson and Holyfield fought. Cooper had a war with Holyfield and Foreman made him quit in 2 rounds. Foreman took Pierre Coetzer out in the same round as Prime Bowe. He took flush shots from Tommy Morrison,Briggs,Holyfield etc Never went down once in the comeback.
He lasted with Prime Holyfield who at the time had stopped all of his previous opponents in the last 5 years! And then one punch KO's the guy who beat Holyfield,Michael Moorer. OK,Moorer wasnt the best heavyweight champ but he was young and strong and he was the real champ at the time.
Foreman wasnt a pretty boxer but give him some ****ing credit.

 

So why should he be given a break for not being as mentaly stable as other champions who remained focused through their prime years?

So thats Ok is it? Name another Top 5 ATG who quit the sport after a handfull of competative fights. Only about 3 guys pushed him. then he lost interest.

Unless Gil trained George to be mentaly unconfident I dont know how you can blame him.

Moorer would also beat Foreman 9 times out of 10. How come you dont make excuses for him?

He also hit Young some big shots. Foreman wasted so much energy that even when he landed on Ali he wouldnt have had the same meat on the punch had he paced himself better. Foreman had the strength of a kitten after round 5.

I can hear a violin....

He came from the olympics, had a whole team of people with a wealth of experience like archie moore, Sonny Liston, Dick sadler. The best sparring, the right opponents at the right time. great match making allowing him to develop ...he was a milion dollar prospect.

Foreman was a capable contender second time around but he was never the best heavyweight in the world that time around. Not by a long chalk.

George Foreman is a top ten all time great. He was able to beat most champions over a very short time. But he did not have his own era. There was no "Foreman era" in boxing because he blew it. Champions who had their own era deserve to be rated higher. thats all.

 

Agree with Choklab. Not being focussed and mentally and physically prepared for a fight is not an excuse for losing. A big part of greatness is a fighter's ability to keep his focus.

 

Even George has admitted that he was mentally shattered after Zaire and Gil Clancy isn't responsible for some of his poor showings subsequently to that.

Gil tried to introduce some more skills and composure but George really wasn't focused enough to implement this successfully imo.

The Foreman who came back whist not the amazing physical specimen he once was, was one of the more mentally strong fighters you'd ever wish to see. Forget the hamburger salesman schtick, did you ever see George looked flustered or confused in his comeback? Even when he was getting a beating he was focused,composed and determined and as a result paced himself a lot better.

If he had that mental attitude the first time around who knows what George may have achieved.

Mental maturity is an oft overlooked attribute in boxing.

 

I agree. But Foreman did not have any of that first time around so he deserves to be rated as a good champion who was part of the Ali era and absent of a strong mental attitude.

Second time around Foreman deserves to be remembered as a capable contender with mental maturity who did lift a title but was not regarded as the best heavyweight of the 1990s.

 

Overrated only if you overlook the fact that he was amazingly strong, had amongst the heaviest punches ever with both hands, a telephone pole jab, crushing uppercut, heavy body blows, vicious hook, and had a very solid chin, amongst the best ever. Guy was just a mountain of strength. So damn strong that even after 10 years off and essentially being an old man for boxing, he could hold his own even with young guys and had most of them on the run to beat him, or had them clinching and grabbing, including top ten and championship caliber guys. He was what he was, and he was a lot of fun to watch, and no one ever stood up to him and outfought him.

 

that is a perfect summary both of Foreman and his career.

 

I don't think Foreman ever lacked mental strength. Just look at the Lyle fight. His weakness was that he fell in love with his strength and his power. His lack of schooling also came to the surface when he was tired or under pressure, when he basically forgot about boxing and his street fighting instincts instead came out.

Losing to Ali and Young was not about him folding, but rather about him being out-thought and taught boxing lessons. Against Young he was probably also under-prepared and over-confident.

In short, Foreman was immature during his first career. Probably largely because he came in to boxing late and never really mastered the discipline like a true pro until his second career. I also think Sadler did him a disservice and made him trust his power too much.

The classic footage where Foreman is pummeling the heavy bag with telegraphed rights and lefts is a perfect example. Yes, the power is frightening, but which top class fighter do they expect to stand still and passively take primitive punches like that? Sooner or later someone with the skill and cool head to block them and counter to the open target that was Foreman's head would always come along.