Is George Foreman the most overrated fighter in history?

Ali for me honestly

 

He had high ring IQ and excellent timing. That doesn't mean he was fast, just that he could time guys, anticipate them, use feints well, etc.

 

I never said he was fast. I said he had decent enough speed to tag guys. I've seen people describe him as slow as molasses, and nobody that slow would be able to tag someone like a prime Hoylfield consistently. When he needed to cut the ring off, he could. And when he needed to throw a quick jab or bomb down the middle, he could. It wasn't blindingly fast or sharp, but it was decent.

Slow as molasses would be someone like Valuev, Wach, Abe Simon, Dominick Brezeale, etc who have feet stuck in cement and the hand speed of old men with arthritis. Nobody can reach the elite level if both their hand and foot speed is below a 4/10.

 

Skills and speed befuddled Foreman, both old and prime versions. Guys like Louis, Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe would pose problems but also the mobile technicians like the 80's era of Ali clones.

The more I think about the more I like a Foreman-Bonecrusher bout.

 

I have no problem with you considering Foreman overrated.
It is arguable whether he is top 10. HE did not even rate himself there, although he was infamously modest later in his career.
At least there are enough mitigating factors & so many greats that I do not see how he rates top 5.

However you have not been completely fair in assessing Foreman.
Which should involve crediting things like being an Olympic gold medalist with limited training.
Being 40-0 with 37 KOs when he met Ali.

Also it is not reasonable to provide qualifications for Lewis having his "complacent" loss (& that does not consider McCall), & besides being KOed being worse than losing a decision over the distance...
Offer no explanations like he was-in part due to dubious coaching-too cautious by the time he fought Young.
That his style & boxing stance was changed.
That Saddler had him come in dehydrated to HW fights, a crazy plan-which led to him seeing God after that fight.

I do not say the loss should not be counted against him.
But if you provide mitigating circumstances for those you compare him to, it is unfair not to do the same for him.
And why not mention that almost everyone believes the Briggs fight was somewhere between a wrong decsion & a robbery?
You gotta present the case for a fighter too; not be selective there.

I usually read all the comments in a new thread before commenting, in part to avoid repetition...
But I am curious to see who made these or similar objections.

Also to wryly comment that I wonder if No Neck has weighed in yet.
Or after seeing the thread topic, he entered a state of incomparable psychological Bliss, like The Buddha when he reached final enlightenment, & has yet to recover enough to post his ecstatic assent.

N.N. if'n you have emerged from the Pure Land of Pugilistic Rapture, I am just teasing.

 

Foreman was overrated in his comeback.
But before it was over & we could look back at it, many sober adults considered him "seriously", starting from when he beat Cooney.
That is distinct from whether he was ever the best, but he was fairly rated at lower top 120, that is far from a side attraction.

Also where is the proof that Arum, or anyone, ever fixed any of his fights?
I never heard this, but am open to hearing the evidence.

 

Arum fixed the Ken Lakusta fight. After Ken rocked George he was told by Arum in the crowd to lay down and get an extra figure in his pay.

 

OK thanks, but please link any evidence for this.
I have no doubt you believe this, & it also may be true, but many times false things are believed, & the sources for claims are dubious or patently false.
You are saying this happened during the actual fight, presumably between rounds? This would be very unusual.


EDIT: watching the fight, I cannot see how it is

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that Arum made the offer & Lakusta threw the fight.
Tell me if I am missing something here...

Not long into the third round, Ken barely beats the count after a Foreman barrage.
Now the only punch I can see where you might say Foreman was "rocked" was when he immediately walked in a bit recklessly for the kill.
The sweeping overhand right rendered Foreman off-balance, but I agree with the commentator that he was "waken up", I do not see him hurt.

Regardless, the crowd got even louder, both fighters started throwing haymakers, & before long Lakusta took a shot that seemed a completely legitimate KO.
He struggled to get up but could not make the count.

There was no sequence of a big shot landed, then Ken returned to his corner so a discreet offer could be made & heard.
How would it even be possible for Ken to HEAR a bribe proffered by anyone there?
Let alone that anyone else could hear it screamed out lol!

 

Jerry Quarry had George's number, and both knew it. Foreman admitted on camera that he deliberately avoided Jerry. JQ walked through Earnie Shavers, who George was also afraid of. If Jerry got to Foreman before Ali, there would've been no Manila. Ali-Frazier II would've then become an eliminator to see who got to Jerry first.

Volunteering to face George first? Jeffries, Dempsey and Louis would have eyed him like Neanderthals hungering for fresh slow mastodon meat. There is nothing to suggest Foreman could've been competitive with Max Baer, who was a harder puncher with ridiculously superior foot speed, mobility, stamina and caginess. Galento's bombs bounced right off him as Maxie subjected Tony to the same trash talk Ali used in Manila. Watch what the Larruper does to Pat Comiskey. Madcap would let Foreman back him into a corner, duck without warning and come over with one of those lethal overhand rights. If George somehow got up from that, his potential to win would no longer exist. Max Baer would then slaughter George Foreman in every way. Past round five, all bets would be off.

Chuvalo wanted a rematch. He was punching back at the end, never turned his back, and knew Foreman would be completely spent after the third round (and maybe before it ended). Ron Lyle desperately wanted a rematch, and came out of retirement in a bid to obtain one. Sub 200 pound Peralta took Foreman into the tenth round twice, and Lead Testicles Frazier also rematched him with utter fearlessness.

Loughran and Tunney win 15 of 15 rounds over Foreman, exposing George's inexperience in every way. Foreman was afraid of being embarrassed and exposed like that. (Meanwhile, the fearless Lyle deliberately obtained schooling from Jimmy Young 2X, Jerry Quarry and other stylists who could make him look bad. What kind of competitor has no fear of looking bad? He ranks with Young, JQ and Shavers among the ATG HW contenders. Who seeks a rematch with Jimmy Young?)

Watch the Marciano-Vingo color footage. The 6'4" Carmine is in perfect range of Rocky's Suzy Q. Foreman had to move on Chuvalo and Peralta. Marciano would likewise stand his ground. GF was a five round fighter. He doesn't get Rocky out inside of five, the big lug is toast. Marciano had vastly superior hand speed and obscene stamina (ref: 100 fifteenth round punches in Charles I). Watch Rex Layne. Foreman would have no more success shoving Marciano back.

Foreman was not a hard fight for Ali, who could have stopped George at any time after the fifth round.Standing in the middle of the ring, toe to toe, George simply didn't have the speed to compete. An MSG rematch would have ended Foreman's career and they both knew it. this was a rare case of contender ducking champion. After Jimmy Young and a third career KD, nobody doubted this. (Young was a supreme nightmare for power punchers. He tried suckering George into a rematch immediately after their bout ended, but George retired instead.)

After Levi Forte took him the ten round distance in Miami Beach, an exhausted Foreman wrapped him up at the final bell and gasped, "No rematch! No rematch!"


On Big George's behalf, he did make a huge contribution to boxing footwork with respect to cutting the ring off efficiently. Dempsey (against Tunney), Louis and the jab oriented Liston failed to do this. (Ali and Tunney were very good on the front foot when they took the aggressor's role. Ali did this with Blue Lewis (in the only fight Muhammad ever clinched the decision with his body punching and infighting alone, although referee Lew Eskin chose to end it during the penultimate scheduled round. Tunney did this with Tommy Gibbons behind his machine gun jab, a different kind of weapon than Loughran's singular pole axes where Tommy picked his spots. Corbett gushed that Loughran perfected what Gentleman Jim aspired to achieve in his own career. Tommy became an undefeated LHW Champion, going 7-0. There was a moment in early 1929 where LHW Loughran may have actually been the world's best HW. Check out what he did to Walker and Braddock.)

 

Totally agree. We only talk about him today because he somehow avoided the minefield of Bob Foster (same height and weight as Garcia in 1970, but far greater), Mac Foster (who would've killed his fellow USMC vet), Ron Lyle, prime Jerry Quarry, Earnie Shavers...after the Garcia I three KD massacre in 1970, Sonny Liston was still around. Again, certain death. (He was very close friends and stablemates with Frazier, so that wasn't gonna happen, fortunately for Kenny.)

Following Garcia I, Kenny would not take on another big puncher until he had to in order to attain a title challenge. The next puncher he faced was Shavers. One of the most cherrypicked HW contenders of the 1970's, and a ridiculously slow starter who had a KD number like Floyd Patterson's. Wildly lucky in breaking Ali's open jaw in the second round with an overhand right, yet still couldn't take out the GOAT, and an SD was a fair representation of how close it was.

He got ridiculously lucky with Bobick in the only high profile fast start of his career, but he was really a mid rounds guy. Could box with most anybody, slug with no one. Couldn't pull the trigger in transit. Needed to plant still in order to punch. Very good off the ropes in countering Cobb's heavy jab. (I'd like to know who Norton rated as being physically stronger, Foreman or Tex. Neither was ever close to being outmuscled.) Best win without compromise or controversy? Ken stopped Henry Clark in nine during 1972. Only Liston and Shavers would otherwise ever pull off a stoppage win over Clark in Henry's 50 career bouts. (All three of Clark's stoppage defeats were televised. First contender to openly idolize Ali.)

I am not convinced Norton could have defeated Leon Spinks the night Leon dethroned Ali.with the strategy of Sam Solomon and George Benton. Ali could and did beat all styles, shapes and sizes. So did Dempsey, Holmes and Louis. Norton was hopeless against sluggers, lost 8 of the first ten rounds against a one armed Holmes (public knowledge going in), lost the rubber match to Ali by UD in the opinions of everybody who has viewed the entirety of that footage, then outboxed LeDoux brilliantly before running out of gas after a thumb to the eye. (These things didn't bother Ali or Frazier.) Not convinced Norton defeats the Bugner who put Frazier through Hell

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Tommy's hand speed was already known. His foot speed and stamina were not. Even when roided to the gills, he was getting shoved around like a rag doll, so he did the right thing. Hook then run right. George couldn't cut the ring by stepping to his left. Surprisingly, Morrison successfully absorbed some hard shots. Tommy and Evander were Foreman's only clear defeats during his second career.

 

Primary source for this please?

 

Foreman was afraid of Shavers? Yet he fought Lyle who ko'd Earnie?
Walker was165lbs for Loughran Braddock 170bs. what does beating them prove as regards the heavyweights?
Why would Foreman have been spent after 3 rds with Chuvalo whom he used as a punch bag? A couple more rounds of that punishment may well have killed Chuvalo.

As an old man Foreman went 12rds with Holyfield without taking his stool?
Foreman did not have a stamina problem that is a fallacy ,he had a pacing problem,
Peralta was stopped 3 times in116 fights once on cuts, Foreman is the only heavyweight to stop him. Do you think Baer ,whom you say hit harder than Foreman ,would have stopped Peralta?

 

Norton had only 16 fights vs Garcia and was clearly green, and dispatched him easily in a rematch which you conveniently seemed to not bring up for some reason.

Lucky to avoid Bob Foster ? Have a day off which Heavyweights did Foster beat ? He lost to every worthwhile Heavyweight he ever fought, and wouldn't even be ranked in top 100 as a Heavyweight Norton would of dismantled Foster.

Norton losing to Mac Foster ? Highly debatable, Lyle ? possibly, Spinks ? Norton beats Spinks hands down, Quarry ? Norton beats any version of Quarry IMO, Norton loses to Bugner who fought Frazier ? Bugner lost almost every round to Frazier and for the majority of his career was a passive boxer no way Norton loses to Bugner.

Norton lucky to break Ali's jaw ? How is that luck ? Its not like someone else was in the ring helping Norton, it was also a clear win for Norton for any fan who watched it. You also fail to not mention that Ali had one of his best performances of the 70s in the rematch vs Norton, yet Ali still barely scrapped by Norton with some people believing Norton won. Ali clearly beat Norton in the 3rd fight for any fan who watched it ? what a load of crap. It's one of the most highly talked about controversial decisions of all time, with plenty of fans thinking Norton won the fight, i'd actually gather more people thought Norton won the 3rd fight than lost it.

Holmes one armed against Norton ? yeah because Holmes really looked like a one armed fighter didn't he ? that's blown way out of proportion as @JohnThomas1 will explain to you.

Shavers a cherry pick ? so one of the hardest hitting Heavyweight's of all time is a cherry pick ? ok.....

All you've done is just try and pick apart Norton's resume not looking at it from both sides, and that's just a biased way of looking at things. You don't mention any positives just the negatives which sounds like to me you dislike Norton for some reason.

 

George Foreman is not as overrated as say, Ken Norton, but he is overrated.

However, I think Tyson would've been walking into a disaster with George the Elder. Foreman starts this one at the opening bell the way he started Boone Kirkman, effortlessly shoving Mike on his backside. Next, he deliberately tanks a round by dropping Tyson with an excruciating kidney punch the way he did Qawi. Do you really think Mike will attempt trading fouls with George?

Is there a worse style for a short armed broad shouldered fighter to try using on old and super strong Foreman than the peek-a-boo? Can Tyson win without taking a single step forward? Watch round one of Carnera-Sharkey II. Mike is literally getting thrown around like that. George would place his hands on Tyson's shoulders and leave a whining Mike comically flailing away at a target a mile away.

Foreman's targets would be Tyson's kidneys, hips, deltoids and biceps. He didn't care about decisions, only knockouts. Tyson had nothing to compete against Old George with, and both knew it. Mike would be peeing blood from his hospital bed for a month after being carried out on a stretcher. Old George had Harley Race strength. (In retirement, at an airport before numerous spectators, Race dropped Bill Kazmaier in a legendary game of mercy. Andre the Giant was terrified of only two men. Race and Tonga "Uli'uli" Fifita, aka Meng, aka Haku. Paul Wight was as afraid of Tonga as Andre was.) Foreman versus Tyson equals Man versus boy, and not in a Dempsey-Willard or Louis-Buddy Baer sense.

Put Foreman-Tyson in a steel cage. Let the unhinged cannibal/raper get what he deserves, then lock him in a cell overnight with a coked up Mitch Green.