Is GSP too risk averse to finish fights?

Matt Hughes and Sean Sherk finish prone... hmmm

Because shields is finish prone? WTF?

 

Matt Hughes is very finish prone. All 8 of his losses have been by some sort of stoppage and he was even choked out in his "win" against Newton. Sherk is the only exception to the rule as far as I see it, hence why I said most of the guys GSP has finished are finish prone. While Shields isn't finish prone he will get absolutely battered because his striking is absolute garbage and he will not be able to get the fight to the mat with his totally predictable and atrocious looking head inside single. He also gasses anytime he's sprawled on significantly. He will be forced to stop after gassing and the accumulation of shots he'll be taking.

 

Hughes has obviously won the majority of his fights down the years but every time he's lost he's been finished.

With Shields I'd guess it may depend on cardio, if he gasses due to the cut again I think he'll get finished otherwise probabley get beat up a bit worse that Kos standing.

I think you need to factor in that GSP simpley isnt THAT good a finisher aswell, he certainly has the ability to put people away but compaired to guys like Fedor, Shogun, Wanderlei, Crocop etc he doesnt have the same degree of power behind his striking or as good a submission game.

 

matt hughes is not finish prone, look at the frank trigg and bj penn 2 fights.

He is not easy to finish at all!

maybe now that he is past his best he is easier to finish.

Jake Shields striking is better technically than koschecks who has gotten by with punching power alone. Jake on the other hand has no punching power to speak of.

shields is not getting stopped, you dont know what your talking about.

its funny that you slamm sheilds takedown ability the last time I checked he has been getting by with his "predictable takedowns."

I think way too many people are making far too much of the kampman fight- which he won by the way. sure it was shields last fight, but by no means was that fight indicative of his entire career.

He will be ready to fight GSP weight wise, stamina wise.....I dont know if he will have the right gameplan or the ability to execute it.

this is Jake Sheilds biggest fight of his career against GSP he will be phisically prepared for the fight. He certainly has long enough to do so.

 

Matt Hughes did win that fight by a slam that ko'd his opponent Carlos Newton.

Matt hughes was dazed by that triangle choke but he was not out, Newton was out cold. Which proves my point: hughes is not easy to finish.

I think that his record points to the opposite of your interpretation that he is finish prone but rather to win against matt hughes you MUST finish him.

 

Yaca You, you need to stop taking valid criticisms of fighters so personally. As both MoreorLess and myself have pointed out, Hughes' 8 losses have come by way of being finished. May I also point out that many of those were before he was out of his prime. Newton was knocked out only after Hughes went unconcious from the choke Newton had applied.

As far as Shields is concerned, I stand by what I've said. His striking is atrocious and he lacks any sort of confidence in what little technique he does bring. He moves around like a malfunctioning robot in desperate need of WD40 and I don't think I've seen anyone look more horrified just standing across another human in a sport they signed up for. Is Kos' striking perfect or even good? No, but atleast he doesn't look like rigamortis-ridden corpse being trotted about with a look of a deer caught in headlights.

I know wrestling very well and there's nothing great about what Shields does. People have given him far too much credence for outwrestling people who have been known to have garbage wrestling (Kampmann, Daley, etc.,etc.) or the fact that he managed to get Hendo, a former Olympian on the ground. So what? Have people not seen that many people with absolutely no wrestling have forced Hendo to the ground?

 

I think a lot of the people who criticize GSP for not finishing are saying it because they want him to lose. They want him to take unnecessary risks so he puts himself in a position where he could get caught a la the Serra fight.
Sorry, but putting yourself in a dangerous situation when you don't have too doesn't make sense. It's called being an intelligent fighter.

 

I am not not taking your criticisms personally, I dont know why you would say this.

I am merely disagreeing with you... is that OK?

Matt Hughes has a ton of skill but it is his heart, determination, and stamina that has been his biggest assets in his career.

That type of fighter takes damage, that type of fighter gets put in bad situations and the vast majority of the time suffers through it and comes out the other side to gain the victory.

The losses he has are the times he was unable to do so, it happens he has a ton of fights against good competition.

I think its fair to point out that the last three tko losses (Bj Penn- UFC 123, Thaigo Alves- UFC 85, and Georges St Peirre-UFC 79) was a Matt Hughes who was past his prime.

In 1998 his first loss to Dennis Hallman was probably before his prime, as he only had a few fights previous to this.

I would hate to turn this into a debate of who was in their prime and when because that sort of thing can hijack a thread topic, but I think it is clear that in these fights Hughes was not at his best.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asWbylYs8Vo[/ame]


Did Hughes go completely unconscious? I dont think he did, but Newton was out cold for sure, he probably would have been out sooner if he hadn't held on to the cage to keep hughes from slaming him earlier. As I said it looked like a slam to me rather than hughes going unconscious and falling to the ground along with newton their seemed to be some power coming from matt hughes driving downwards- semi conscious wrestlers can do that sort of thing even when dazed, which I think is the case here.

quote=PrizeFight!;8496462]As far as Shields is concerned, I stand by what I've said. His striking is atrocious and he lacks any sort of confidence in what little technique he does bring. He moves around like a malfunctioning robot in desperate need of WD40 and I don't think I've seen anyone look more horrified just standing across another human in a sport they signed up for. Is Kos' striking perfect or even good? No, but atleast he doesn't look like rigamortis-ridden corpse being trotted about with a look of a deer caught in headlights.

I know wrestling very well and there's nothing great about what Shields does. People have given him far too much credence for outwrestling people who have been known to have garbage wrestling (Kampmann, Daley, etc.,etc.) or the fact that he managed to get Hendo, a former Olympian on the ground. So what? Have people not seen that many people with absolutely no wrestling have forced Hendo to the ground?[/quote]


I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there

Fundamentally what you are saying is that Jake Shields is unskilled at striking and wrestling. So basically Shields has been getting lucky with his wins against great opposition, none of them possess skills to stop his sloppy weak takedowns.

The truth is that he has taken down almost everyone he has ever faced using a verity of methods including singles and double leg takedowns.

Shields would certainly be the underdog against Gsp this is true, but he can still present dangers for Georges on the ground.

I don’t see Shields getting georges down with a double or single off of a shoot at least not without a good set up beforehand this is true he just doesn’t have the speed to do it and will get stuffed.

 

Sorry but he's right yaca, Hughes isnt THAT easy to finish but he is easier than the guys GSP has faced recently. His standup defence has never been good and his sub defence has been pretty suspect aswell.

 

I must say one thing, GSP looked very slim in that fight. I wonder if he sacrificed a bit of size/power for speed in cutting weight?

 

not going to agree with that.

Hughes last stoppages were way past his prime, Moreorless you writing that matt is finish prone does not make it so.

Both Gsp's losses were stopages when he has 50 fights could his record look similar to hughes when he is 37 years old- only if he is really lucky!

Hughes really has a great record for someone who has been fighting past his prime for the last 3 or 4 years and you want to say he is finish prone?

Answer me this, would you have said that 4 years ago?

 

other guys where the vast majority of their losses were stoppages:

Randy Couture- by some miracle he made it through the fight with nog without being stopped, all his other losses were stoppages some by cans.
Kazushi Sakuraba - 10 out of his 14 losses were by stoppage.
Royce Gracie- only lost by stoppage.
Mauricio rua- only made it through one loss without being stopped.
Chuck Liddell- only made it through one loss without being stopped.
Rich Franklin- only made it through one loss without being stopped.
Fedor Emelianenko- all of his losses were stoppages

These guys are all finish prone = easily finished.

A lot of fights end by stoppage in mma, thats just the way it turns out.

 

Hughes definitely slammed Newton. You can tell from the speed, the grip and him bending from the waist. It's not like his body conked out on him.

 

I dunno why people attack GSP's chin when it's clearly great.

 

I'd have said Hughes had weaknesses and hadnt really been tested agenst the newer geneartion of talent at WW besides a young GSP.

With Hughes I think its more a case of competision passing him by than physical decline personally. Even in his most sucessful years he did look vunerable to submission fighters and didnt really face many good strikers after being KOed by Pele, got subbed by BJ for a number of his wins he was very nearly finished(Verissimo, Newton, BJ and Trigg second time round). Certainly not lacking in heart but compaired to the guys GSP is facing today he had more obvious weaknesses to exploit for a finish.

Some of those names/stats you posted are pretty dishoniest aswell...

Randy Couture- I do think he's more vunerable to being stopped than alot of big names at LHW and HW, not that great a chin and questionable defence off of his back.
Kazushi Sakuraba - Like Hughes I think the sport passed him by but the physical decline over the last 5 years is much greater.
Royce Gracie- Again the sport passed him by and he has lots of obvious weaknesses
Mauricio rua- Finished 3 times and one of those was an injury with the other the result of him being gassed with another injury and the third very early in his career.
Chuck Liddell- Compaired to other big names at LHW I do think Chuck left easier openings, very little in the way of defence and could well have lost to guys like Pele, Overeem and Mezger as a result.
Rich Franklin- Again I think he's vunerable to being finished compaired to alot of other big name MW's and LHW's, likes to get into open exchanges standing but lacks power and chin.
Fedor Emelianenko- One cut stoppage from an illegal blow and one submission loss.

Being prone to being finished does not mean somene cannot be a quality fighter aswell though.