Is Harry Greb a top 3 light heavyweight H2H?

Harry Greb wasn't a top 100 light heavyweight since he wasn't a light heavyweight. He was a 160 pound fighter. Maybe a little heavier at times. So he was a middleweight/super middleweight by today's standards. Also who did he beat? He wasn't fight the best black fighters of the era and even if he was the people from that era had primitive boxing skills compared to modern fighters so you can't even compare. You can only compare them with guys from that era.

 

Although Greb was a middleweight, most of his signature wins were over light heavyweights.

In total he defeated seven men who held the lineal light heavyweight title, so he absolutely belongs in the discussion about the great light heavyweights.

Although many top fighters of the era refused to fight the best black challengers, Greb was not one of them.

I cannot think of any significant black contender who he should have fought but didn’t.

As for the "primitive boxing skills" of the era, I would suggest that many of his victims look pretty darn good on film.

For example Gene Tunney could probably take apart any light heavyweight or cruiserweight that we have today.

 

Ignorant comment. "Who did he beat"? He bet 9 all time great light heavyweights enshrined in the hall of fame. You cant name another fighter who can boast that. At least three more flat out refused to fight him. "he was only a 160 lb fighter, maybe a little heavier at times." In Greb's era anything over 158 (160 later) was a light heavyweight, there was no supermiddleweight. Something like half his fights were fought at light heavyweight. In fact he had more fights at light heavyweight then probably any active light heavyweight today.

He wasnt fighting the best black fighters of the era? Who did he not fight that you think he should have? Lets see. He fought the most feared black light heavyweight of the era, Kid Norfolk and had him in a corner taking heavy punishment at the final bell despite being outweighed by 17 pounds. What great black light heavyweight after that did he miss? Battling Siki? He tried signed to fight Siki but instead Siki was forced by the NYSAC to fight Kid Norfolk and took the ass kicking of a life time. Behind Norfolk and Siki there was Larry Estridge who lost to Allentown Joe Gans (another black fighter Greb beat), Ted Moore, Augie Ratner, Frank Moody, and Young Fisher, all Greb victims. Estridge Never beat a guy that beat Greb. Then there was Jamaica Kid who lost to Mike McTigue, Clay Turner, Jeff Smith, Ted Moore, and Maxie Rosenbloom all Greb victims. He did manage one win against Flowers in nine fights but by the time Flowers was reaching his prime and beating Jamaica Kid 5 times in one year Greb beat Flowers... So theres that. There was Lee Anderson who lost to Jimmy Darcy, Billy Miske, Ted Jamieson, Jeff Smith, and Tiger Flowers, all Greb victims. The best Anderson could do was split two fights with Kid Norfolk but most people thought Greb did as well so... There was Battling Gahee who lost to Tiger Flowers, Joe Lohman, and Art Weigand, all of whom Greb beat. So, who exactly am I missing that was black that Greb should have fought but didnt that you could argue was better than the men he already beat?

Name me a single fighter, black or white, from any era in history, who has more elite LHW scalps than Greb. Cant be done. A legit LHW badass like Bob Foster has ONE. Archie Moore has seven, Michael Spinks has TWO, Qawi has ONE, Llloyd Marshall has eight, Charley Burley has five, Ezzard Charles has seven (nine if you want to include his wins over Louis and Walcott all of which took place with both contestants above the LHW limit, 10 if you want to include his wins over Burley who was only a middleweight at the time, but if you include his MW wins then you have to add Grebs as well which dramatically increases Grebs HOF scalps once agains dwarfing Charles). Harold Johnson has three HOF scalps, two of which he won weighing above 175 as did the opponent), John Henry Lewis has three. Saad has ZERO HOF scalps to his name. At LHW Dick Tiger has one and a lot of people didnt even think he beat that one. Jose Torres, the HOF name on Tigers record has two.

There were bonafide, big money offers for Greb to fight four other HOF LHWs: Berlenbach, Siki, Delaney, and Carpentier. Carpentier flat out refused all offers to face Greb. Delaney had three seperate chances, one of which was a signed title fight and he backed out at the last minute. Siki likewise was signed to fight Greb but was prevented from it by the NYSAC who forced him to fight Kid Norfolk instead. Greb was eager for that fight and sorry to lose the purse. Tex Rickard steered Berlenbach well clear of Greb.

I think Greb accomplished more than enough to be considered one of the greatest LHWs in history.

 

Yeah Tommy Loughran, Gene Tunney, Jimmy Slattery, Battling Levinsky, Kid Norfolk, and Tommy Gibbons all look very good on film. Add in guys like Jeff Smith, Mike Gibbons, Mike O'Dowd, and Mickey Walker who also look great and you cant say that modern skills were lacking in Grebs era and that he would have had difficulty with modern style boxers.

 

BH, Greb had his own unique style, a style that couldnt be taught, it was more modern than old school. I never seen somebody say that Greb was old school. Greb wasnt a beautiful boxer, from reports he never stood still, bouncing here and there throwing punches like the Tasmanian devil from the cartoon swarming attack with speed to burn. SRR had a better style, and threw heavier punches, Greb, was a fighter who knew enough to trade power for speed. And to say he never fought the best black guys just isnt true. Why must everything be about race? BH go partake of some good herb and calm down.

 

No he is not. First of all i can't rank a guy without films of his fights over guys like charles,spinks, bob foster,archie moore, etc

 

A lot of the footage from pre WW2 was recycled. The Manhattan Project required 15,000 tonnes of silver for use as a conductor. Copper would have aroused suspicion when requested in such a large amount.

Apparently old footage was recycled for its silver as part of the drive towards this, with congress setting aside 86,000 tonnes of silver for such projects.

The fact the old film was flammable also accounted for a lot of it getting lost too.

 

It's Christmas, so I'll be nice today.

Only comment I'll make is that the "so and so backed out of a fight" or "wouldn't fight him" line of
reasoning should be taken with a grain of salt. Surely some of them were contractual reasons,
just like today. I cannot believe that any top notch boxer would be "afraid" of any other boxer.
That's tantamount to calling him a coward. Or, like Deion Sanders used to say, it was a
"business decision" not to fight anyone in particular.

 

You can take off all the guys who were afraid of Greb or made "business decisions" not to lose, lol, and his lhw resume still outshines anyone else. The point is that those fights that didnt get made because of "business decisions" werent the result of Greb's "business decisions." His resume is already far more stacked than anyone else of the era and had some of those other guys been less "business minded" like Greb those fights woild have been made and Greb likely would have had more HOF scalps on his resume seeing as how he beat better fighters than those named. Irregardless, my overall point that Greb was an all time great lhw in addition to being an all time great mw stands.

 

If Greb had weighed in close to the LHW limit, then I doubt that many would question his status as a top five all time LHW.

The fact that he was small for a LHW perhaps causes people to look past him in this respect.

We see the same thing with Bob Fitzsimmons at heavyweight to a lesser extent.

If a fighter has beaten the best in a weight class, it shouldn't matter if his weight is a bit low for that weight class.

 

i would, i think that having a film of a fight would help more

 

I am sympathetic to what you are saying, but I think that we have film of enough of his opponents to say how good he was.

 

I've no doubt that if I had footage of the fight with Tunney he'd be right up there.

I'm just not willing to rank people I haven't seen.