Is holding part of Ring Generalship?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by RightCross, Oct 18, 2009.


  1. RightCross

    RightCross Grandmaster of Boxing Full Member

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    I normally post in the general forum but, I have a serious question here. What criteria are used when determining ring generalship? I always assumed it was controlling distance and making your opponent fight your style. Controlling distance, footwork and movement and engaging when you want.

    I quickly googled ring generalship and the first part of the definition by the NY state athletic commission is: ring generalship” comprised "such points as the ability to quickly grasp and take advantage of every opportunity offered, the capacity to cope with all kinds of situations which may arise; to foresee and neutralize an opponent’s method of attack; to force an opponent to adopt a style of boxing at which he is not particularly skillful."

    Now I know classic boxing was inside fighting regularly and holding/grasping was a big part of the sport. Thought on the subject? Is holding part of ring generalship?
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    An absolutely crucial aspect for some styles.

    Let's say for a pure-boxer tackling a fleat-footed volume-punching swarmer; to deploy perfect ring generalship he would hold exactly as much as is possible without drawing a warning. Usuallly impossible, the fighter would look to hold exactly as much as possible without losing a point. Lennox Lewis; check him out v Tyson, holding is absolutley a part of his generalship and note how he alters his holding/leaning (also a huge part of his gamplan) depending upon the warnings he draws.
     
  3. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

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    was it?
     
  4. Vantage_West

    Vantage_West ヒップホップ·プロデューサー Full Member

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    if you run around the ring and jab and clinch then you are using your best speed, and agilty as your best assets but not a ring general.

    if you are coming foreward landing ineffective punches but doing enough to pressure the other fighter then you are using your power and chin as better aspects but not a ring general.boxing is more than sluggers, boxers and brawlers


    it means cutting the ring, and controlling the other fighter. using aspects outside the box. dominating without landing punches basicly.
    prime hopkins, robinson, louis, lewis, holmes, 2 sharp
     
  5. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Excessive holding is a foul and subject to point deductions or disqualification. Holding to shut an opponent down on the inside is acceptable within reason. Is it part of ring generalship? If a fighter uses it to their advantage, yes. Most fighters do it, the way Dirrell did it last night was too much.
    We've seen fighters disqualified for it as was the case in Lewis vs Akinwande and Tyson vs Ferguson.
     
  6. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    It was partly due to his clever use of holding tactics that Sammy Angott was able to defeat Willie Pep.
     
  7. Tin_Ribs

    Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

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    This was one of main the parts of Lewis' game that made him so difficult to neutralise, and one of the chief reasons why I've always thought that Tyson would have struggled against him on any given day.

    Of the current bunch, Hopkins is a master when it comes to strategic - and at times, blatantly dirty - holding.
     
  8. RightCross

    RightCross Grandmaster of Boxing Full Member

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    Lets consider this question then. If as some of you say holding is acceptable and is indeed part of ring generalship.

    Therefore, how can you penalize someone for doing it as well as give them credit for ring generalship? This seems to be to be contradictory.
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Judges will not score for holding. The definition of "ring generalship" adopted by judges won't be the same as the one in general use.
     
  10. prime

    prime BOX! Writing Champion Full Member

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    Normally a fighter holds when he needs a respite. In this case, it is simply seeking a break in the action.

    But it certainly can be, if a fighter uses it proactively as part of his style, as McGrain well points out. This was Ali's battle plan in regaining against Spinks: jab, jab, cross; hold when he gets in close to avoid the pummeling. John Ruiz, anyone?

    It should never endear a fighter to the judges in terms of scoring, so, as with everything in life, the trick is to find the right balance with this skill in the ring. Had Thomas Hearns mastered the clinch when battling Ray Leonard, he may very well not have ended up a mess on the ropes.
     
  11. Tin_Ribs

    Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

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    It's a grey area is why. Deploy it cleverly and it can be difficult penalize, hence one of the reasons why intelligent fighters, fair or not, often get away with it.
     
  12. RightCross

    RightCross Grandmaster of Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, Obviously.
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU90MwTU7yc[/ame]
     
  13. RightCross

    RightCross Grandmaster of Boxing Full Member

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    Judges cannot make up their own rules in boxing or any other sport. If grasping is used intelligently and helps to control the fight. Much as Lewis did in the Tyson fight or now as Wlad does when someone gets inside. This should be counted as a positive and hence add to ring generalship.
     
  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Muhammad Ali v. Joe Frazier II is a good example of holding as part of ring generalship.
     
  15. RightCross

    RightCross Grandmaster of Boxing Full Member

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    This isnt really what I am asking. Shouldnt it be scored as a positive and never penalized in terms of ring generalship in terms of the NY state athletic commission's definition?

    The Marquis if Queensbury rules has a section for not allowing "hugging" or wrestling.

    **Edit, I cannot find any mention of holding or ring generalship in the unified rules of boxing.