Is it agreed that Muhammad Ali's form improved after FOTC 1971 ?

Maybe his form improved slightly for a few of those fights, it's hard to say, but he was in great form for the Frazier fight. Let's not distort that fact.

People talk about ring rust, but he'd fought 18 rounds of competitive boxing (v. Quarry and Bonavena) going in to the Frazier fight, and sparred plenty.

Frazier was just scintillating for the fight.

 

Ali was in excellent form for the FOTC. He just met a better fighter.

 

This is all true but the lesser fighters Ali was beating were still decent, Mathis went 11 rds with Frazier, and a couple of poor opponents of Ali's beat Daniels and Stander who were Frazier's title challengers.

 

Whom he beat in two rematches. Ali was in excellent form after 18rds of boxing in nearly 4 years.
Credibilty re-assessment.atsch

 

You wanna claim Frazier was in better or the same form in two rematches? Had Ali not been in excellent form for the FOTC he wouldn't have lasted 15 rounds with that Frazier.

 

People might say "only 18 rounds of boxing in 4 years" but then I assume they also claim that 33 rounds in 4 years was enough to turn him into a significantly better fighter against Ellis in his next fight .... despite the fact that he received a lot of punishment against Frazier just 4 months before facing Ellis.

I thought Vitali Klitschko looked as good as he ever did against Arreola.
I though Joe Louis looked pretty good against Mauriello.
I think Ali looked great against Frazier.

I don't know what the accepted guidelines for rounds boxed after a lay-off are.

 

Remember reading that Joe Louis' trainer Chappie Blackburn always had Louis sparring on ridiculously heavily padded canvas' so that when he stepped in te ring on fight night with the best canvas' he'd be that much quicker across it - I think an Ali-Louis fight may pan out with people being surprised just like they were with Foreman at how quick he could cut off that ring - plus how do you think things would've gone if the canvas had've been a quick one - do you reckon it might've worked out better in hindsight having a heavy canvas?

 

Ps my favourite Ali performance other than The Rumble In The Jungle was Norton II - all things considered - level of opponent/performance of the opponent themselves/own performance relative etc I think Ali was amazing in that one - and Norton was awesome too - one of my favourite heavyweight fights to watch if I'm honest both guys great and both guys really pushing eachother in different ways but bringing the absolute best out of each other - plus Ali looked in the best shape I've seen him to be honest - and he also danced and moved awesome that night like the Ali of old really - I'd probably say this Ali was better than he was for FOTC although I think half the problem was with the FOTC was that Ali got drawn in a bit to a bit of a dog fight because of the grudge nature of the fight and all the needle involved whereas with Norton II he kinda stuck to his boxing pretty strictly until Norton began forcing the distance to close late on

 

I claim Ali was a better fighter than Frazier and most serious students of the game agree.

I claim that the Ali who was in the ring for the FOTC was lacking in ring rounds and still feeling the effects of his near 4 year lay off.
Frazier was better for ONE NIGHT, he never before ,or after produced that form again .

Unlike many I thought he won clearly and did not need the last round knockdown.

Frazier spent a week in the hospital .Prime Ali would go the distance with Frazier 7 days a week, and stand an outside chance of stopping him too.That's what I claim.

Keep it coming Jack Fiske!:bbb

 

I think that's what Senya meant. I don't know.

My opinion :
Ali against Frazier was about as good as he ever would be post-layoff.
Some people are trying to distort that too much.

 

On that night Frazier was a better fighter. It didn't matter if Ali had fought more tune-up fights before the FOTC, Frazier would have beaten him anyway.

Many would choose 1969 as Frazier's peak, before he had multiple health issues and an injury.

 

Several of Ali's fights post-FOTC he was actually in lesser form, and often clearly so.

 

Ellis was a poor man's facsimile of Ali, he was outsized by Ali ,and unable to put the pressure on him that Frazier was capable of ,so the comparison is not valid.

 

Exactly. But it doesn't stop people saying Ali was "in better form" for the Ellis fight.