Is it agreed that Muhammad Ali's form improved after FOTC 1971 ?

Thats a good way to put it,I think Ali tempered his performance with mercy that night.

 

That's an excellent question. Ali would still have to contend with George cutting off the ring although it would not have been as easy for Foreman. I think you would have seen Ali move more but he may have still needed to use the ropes as he would have found himself trapped there at times. Heck the fight could have panned out in a similar fashion slow or fast canvas.

 

Harry Carpenter was pretty explicit that Ali's hand and foot speed returned to something resembling his 1960s form for Frazier II, not Jerry Quarry II or Ken Norton II [for which he'd also trained himself down to 212], but specifically the second match with Frazier.

Ali did rush into the FOTC ahead of an anticipated adverse SCOTUS ruling against him which unexpectedly went unanimously in his favor that summer. Yes, he'd gone nearly the distance with Bonavena, but it was a dull, slow paced affair for 14 rounds, not optimal preparation for the FOTC. [Chuvalo II might have been better for Muhammad at that moment.] Jerry Quarry I may actually have had an unfortunate outcome for the winner as well as the loser. If Jerry hadn't been cut, and forced Ali into a championship distance comeback his first time out after exile, he'd have been a lot more dynamic for Bonavena. Then, his preparedness for the FOTC would be far less questioned.

On balance, it should also be mentioned that Joe may not have been optimal for the FOTC either, having only competed for barely more than a round against a hopelessly overmatched Bob Foster since he'd busted his ankle after Ellis I more than a year earlier. Both I and my mother broke our ankles a few years ago, and neither of us have regained our former mobility [of course we're not professional athletes either].

The chip was off Frazier's shoulder by Ali II, and he was clearly not the same against Bugner for his post title comeback, even trained down to 208.

I do think the 1974 Ali of Frazier II and Foreman would have been better in the FOTC than he actually was in March 1971, but also that the Smoke of Ellis I and Jerry Quarry I would have been a bit better for the FOTC prior to that ankle injury.

Potential wise, Muhammad reduced in decrements from exile, to Manila, to Inoki [which screwed up his legs] to Shavers [after which the neurological damage Earnie inflicted on him permanently compromised his motor coordination], as I see it. The combination of steady competition and dedicated training did elevate him from FOTC form to Frazier II and Kinshasa, but he was irredeemably damaged goods after Shavers.

Manila isn't an event which I think diluted him as much as commonly supposed. He could still use his legs to generate the necessary traction for knockout power against Coopman and Dunn. He was fat and lazy for Jimmy Young, but still looked decent trained down to 220 for Dunn six weeks later. Following Inoki though, that power seemed gone. Norton III wasn't the situation to expose it, but Evangelista definitely was. Put Dunn and Coopman in Evangelista's place, and they too may well have lasted the distance. Put Evangelista in the place of Dunn and Coopman, and Ali woulda gotten him outta there. Nor do I think Shavers would have lasted the championship distance with the Ali of Coopman and Dunn. Ali's prime potential may well have concluded with Dunn, due to the Inoki debacle.

Norton made his name by fracturing Ali's jaw due to a neglected impacted wisdom tooth on the left side of Muhammad's jaw. That thing was a time bomb waiting to go off, but Frazier didn't have the right hand necessary to exploit it. If Muhammad had gone into Kinshasa with that jaw unbroken by Norton, and that dental disrepair still in place, George would have made him pay dearly for it. Foreman was slower than Ken, but his right still hit Ali's jaw hard enough to induce a fracture if Norton hadn't beaten him to it the year before.

Floyd Patterson never got out of shape after his rematch with Ali, and expressed interest in a third bout after Muhammad regained the title. Floyd was now pushing 40, and certainly wouldn't have been competitive, but Ali-Patterson III would have given us a unique viewpoint no other opponent ever experienced on Ali's evolution. [Both Patterson and Chuvalo were pretty adamant that he clearly wasn't the same athlete in 1972 that he was in the mid 1960s

 

Wrong. That's a story Ali himself told people to make everyone think that he lost to Frazier because he was out of shape.

Before the Frazier fight, Ali beat Oscar Bonavena by 15th-round KO.

15th-round KO. Does that sound like someone who is out of shape?

The reason he lost to Frazier is that Frazier was in great shape. In the 2 rematches, Frazier was fat and damaged by Foreman, and so Ali managed to scrape a couple of wins over him.

Ali used the same excuse when he lost to Norton, then he fought Norton twice more and lost both rematches (in mine and most poeple's opinions).

 

Ali was off for a long time. Even though he did have a couple of tuneup fights to get ready it is possible that he had ring rust.

It just didn`t look that way in the ring. Ali came out sharp in March `71. He was in great condition and his hands were blazing. He was peppering Joe for the first 3 or 4 rounds. His punches were accurate and he looked like Muhammad Ali. Joe was just so determined that night to chop Ali down.

JMO but I would say that more than any ring rust I believe Ali underestimated Joe Frazier. He didnt think Frazier would be able to take that kind of consistant punishment and not get discouraged. Also Joe`s quickness and headmovement seemed to befuddle Ali.

Ali may have been marginally better in the `74 fight but I think more than anything he learned how to fight Joe and knew what to expect the second time around. Also Frazier had slipped a bit as well.

 

Does FOTC Ali beat Kinshasa Foreman? :think

 

I believe he does. He was able to go 15 rounds with Joe taking terrific punishment. Ali survives 5 or 6 rounds of pressure from Foreman and starts picking his shots. The first 3 rounds would always be dicey but Ali took a great punch.

Remember in the 9th round of that FOTC? Ali was on the verge of getting stopped by Frazier was badly hurt and comes back with an incredible flurry of punches to stop Frazier in his tracks. Point being Ali was always able to dig deep and find strength when he needed it.

Lets not discount the fact that Foreman was very sloppy in Zaire. He fought a horrible fight for whatever reason. He was falling all over himself and looked too anxious. It was one of the worst fights technically I think an elite figher ever fought.

 

:good


And this is all you need to know, boxing fans.

 

:good

FOTC Ali does not see the 15th round against 1969 Frazier.

 

Sorry, but Angelo Dundee in his last book talked about Ali slacking off in training for FOTC.

 

Even though Dec 1968 saw a far less elusive Oscar Bonavena take Joe the distance for the second time.



1969 Ali (no exile, four or five fights a year) doesn't need fifteen rounds for 1969 Frazier.

 

I think we can safely assume we have detected your agenda.