Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."

Fleischer..."The press constantly hounded Dempsey over the issue of a bout with this latest sensation, but the only problem was that Wills was black. There had, to this point, been only one black heavyweight champion, Jack Johnson. Johnson's reign had been so controversial and shocking that many within the fight business had been determined that there would never been another "colored" man allowed within a fighting chance of the laurels. Among those were Doc Kearns and Tex Rickard, Dempsey's manager and promoter; they shot down any talk of a fight with Wills. This left only Tommy Gibbons as a viable opponent. Though his resume was somewhat less impressive than that of Wills, the talented gibbons was considered a tough challenger".

 

H, that is my take on this issue based on tons of articles of that long ago time...We are all products of our time. So was Jack Johnson, Tex Rickard, Jack Dempsey, Harry Wills etc. A Nat Fleischer KNEW a helluva lot more than today's Dempsey naysayers who spout moral superiority ninety years
later...

 

Fleischer was THERE speaking and interacting with all involved.

 

Tyson is better than Dempsey anyway it's sliced imo.

Had jack wanted the fight, he could have made it anywhere in the world for whatever was offered. It's not arguable.

Pp has nailed this thread anyways, great work.

 

NOT according to Langford, Arcel and Fleischer! You have one of the greatest fighters in boxing history who fought Wills 22 times who said in 1922 that Dempsey would win if they fought. Arcel one of boxings greatest all time trainers who lived through that time period who felt Dempsey would win easily and finally Nat Fleischer one of boxings greatest historians who states that it was Kearns and Rickard NOT Dempsey who blocked the fight with Wills. Cant be more conclusive than that. Cant find more reputable sources than these three. I can provide more if you would live to be further beaten to a pulp!

 

Here is a quote I found from Wills HIMSELF...

"I never blamed Jack. I am sure if he had it his way I would have gotten a title shot."

1964 BI article concerning Wills.

 

Which English promoter offered Dempsey $200,000 to fight Wills?

I've never heard of it.

 

Pp ko9 Houdini

 

IF Dempsey could have actually walked away from Rickard and Kearns and promoted the fight himself..if that was even feasible...why would Wills when asked about it lay no blame whatsoever on Dempsey?

Fleischer....."The only reason why Dempsey did not fight Wills is that Rickard refused to promote it."

 

jack and wills shared an era. The two sat side by side at the top of the division from 1919-1923 and they sit side by side in my top 15.

Wills has a better resume and jack has the benefit of film.

I wish jack would have fought him instead of going Hollywood. I don't call it a duck but he certainly didn't pull out all the stops.

 

Jeannette was a couple of months shy of 40 when Wills beat him.

Fulton had been demolished in 23 seconds by Dempsey 2 years before Wills beat him. The newspapers, reporting after the Firpo Wills fight ,stated that Wills had eliminated himself as a threat by his lack lustre showing.
Norfolk was conceding nearly 37 lbs, and 6 inches in height to Wills.
Wills lost to near prime versions of McVey, and Langford, and drew with Jeannette 3 times, he only beat Jeannette when Joe was near 40. Wills also drew with Dempsey's sparring partner Bill Tate, and refused to fight his other main one, George Godfrey.

 

Dempsey Wills is ye olde Roy Jones-Dariusz Michalczewski.

 

Well, I put more faith in facts, the actual events and film, rather than opinions and fairy-tails from people of the time who view them in their own bias, and didn't have access to film. It's absolutely worthless to compare someone you see now and someone you saw 20+ years ago. Human memory isn't that reliable.

If I have to believe those guys, then Jeffries was slicker than Mayweather. Film shows otherwise.

 

Most of what Fleischer wrote was during those times. Secondly most of what's on film in terms of Dempsey is not in great shape and all of it aside from select and specific films have been heavily edited. As an example the less than 2 round bout with Firpo has been sliced and diced so much noone can be sure what is what. All of Dempseys films have that silient movie effect...like every 3rd frame has been removed so its hard to see the feints and his athleticism. After 40 years of watching his fights I can pick up great moves and punches but the casual fan its all a blur. So you must read what those who saw him in action felt about their skills and abilities...Fleischer, Arcel, Stillman, Langford, all felt he was not only an all time great fighter but that he would ko Wills. If you don't believe them, and you would be classed as a real Dempsey hater if you didnt, then how about Wills himself? Wills when asked about why he and Dempsey never fought laid NO blame on Dempsey. If it were true that Dempsey could have easily made the match himself and that he purposfully wiggled out of making the fight when pressed don't you think Wills would have pointed some level of finger at him? He didn't.

 

Nonsense...The hundreds of top boxing trainers, reporters, fighters who saw the prime Jack Dempsey fight ringside, knew aeons more than you CP.
It is YOU SIR, who is spouting fairy tales asserting that you, seeing some bad clips of Dempsey pre Tunney and against Tunney when Dempsey was out of the ring for THREE years, come to the conclusion that Dempsey was a stiff...Ninety years later you somehow know more than the esteemed
writers who wrote about Dempsey the next day after his fights, and raved about his prowess and savagery...But you SOMEHOW are to be more credible than they are !!!
You say memory is not reliable...Well the people who saw Dempsey fight wrote about him the next day after the fights...
One other thing...I saw Ray Robinson fight as a WW in his prime a couple of times in the 1940s, and though 60 years have elapsed since those fights
I still BELIEVE he was the best fighter I ever saw.Though by your standards
my memory isn't reliable. Nonsense...Dempsey by all who saw him before his 3 year layoff was considered a killer in the ring with unique qualities
of power, speed and ruggedness, who would be a handfull for any
heavyweight who ever lived...Live with that fact...cheers...